Request: HID with Phase Essentials

pARty_bOy
pARty_bOy Member Posts: 13 Sine

Hello NI & Traktor users, I would like to request to have HID with Phase Essentials, or just better "resolution" to avoid cue(sticker) drifts when scratching and beatjuggling.

Thank you, Looking Forward.


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Comments

  • 4roio
    4roio Member Posts: 1 Noise

    Please NI waiting for this for so long

  • Elvis Lewis
    Elvis Lewis Member Posts: 1 Noise

    Been waiting a long time for this...

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 185 Saw

    Sticker drift will be hard to improve even with HID…

  • Scratch-E Con
    Scratch-E Con AmsterdamMember Posts: 30 Tri

    Believe me there is a world of difference between using Phase with Traktor or Serato.

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 185 Saw

    Sure HID improves things but sticker drift is also found on Denons/twelves and these have some extra signals make them workable but it seems Phase wasn’t developed with these workarounds in mind. Maybe mk2 version… meanwhile you can get some benefeits from HID but sticker drift seems the worst part vs analog vinyl.

  • pARty_bOy
    pARty_bOy Member Posts: 13 Sine
    edited March 10

    email/request NI for HID Phase on the link -> https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/360003345438


  • pARty_bOy
    pARty_bOy Member Posts: 13 Sine
    edited March 11

    Why so? it really doesnt need HID . I tested today Virtual DJ with Phase using the RCA and there is no drift, it got perfect after setting "Timecode Silence" to 0.02 and it is just like HID in Serato,no Cue drift, amazing response/performance.

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 185 Saw
    edited March 11

    Audio timecode has sticker drift that’s a fact. How noticeable or workable will depend on user experience.

    There are workarounds on audio timecode (like Torq did in the past) and also on HID (like Twelve is implementing) and the less sticker drift is usually on dedicated embed solutions with custom sensors (from Numark Cdx texas instruments board to new Denons). If the sensors are on place (encoders on the platter and fake-vinyl and endstop by round) it’s possible to fine tune the sticker drift and only RAM memory can break the position (so you need to do a backspin with more turns than memory has audio stored which nowadays shouldn’t be a problem).

    Phase should have absolute position magnet encoder implemented and with some kind of calibration should fight sticker drift. Also with HID (and proper resolution and good code) should be even more accurate than timecode but sometimes don’t (due timecode signal or NoiseMap in Serato’s world) so some issues arise being sticker drift one. If you perform a slow drag and the audio engine granulize the sample you are moving the absolute position until next “endstop round” if implemented, etc etc etc…


    So maybe for 99% of mortals could be enough but I’m talking about “Die Hard turntablists” which compare the digital solutions against analog scratching which is by definition faster than any digital conversion and more “rich” in sonic terms (not by being vinyl, by being just analog and how the tonearm itself can perform tricks outside the timecode system but again 99% of actual dj, includding lots of turntablist, don’t need or perform anymore such needle drop tricks ala A-Track or rubber band bass etc…)


    I could be wrong because I talk by knowledge and experience about 20 years dealing with all these systems and the most deep understanding I could reach over these years up to burning out myself on them (but still working on my own custom solutions just for masochism) and I tell what I found discussing this very topic over these years with some developers and even midifying a Cdx with Arduino myself back in the day.


    Aside of that, Phase HID implementation is a partnership with Serato (lets put aside Vdj) so it should be possible get similar performance (limited by differences between Serato and Traktor platforms themselves) but hardly will be implemented meanwhile the partnership with Serato exists.


    The main rule could be “if you want to avoid sticker drift get analog vinyl or dedicated standalone hardware like Denon or similar which will be the nearest solution”. Let’s hope Phase Mk2 delivers standalone solution alongside timecode/HID so everyone gets what they need.

    Remember that’s my humble (but educated on the field) opinion, nothing else.

  • pARty_bOy
    pARty_bOy Member Posts: 13 Sine
    edited March 15

    thanks for the feedback, but like I said before, I think Phase doesnt need HID in Traktor, Virtual DJ performs very good without drifts and without HID using only the RCA inputs, meaning that NI just needs to "open up the code" like it did for Pioneer, and what I mean is that in VDJ the workaround/setting is raise "Timecode Silence" to 0.02ms wich forces VDJ to always listen to Timecode signal. so something like that must happen in Traktor for Phase to perform better. Remember that only NI Midi Controllers (S2/S3/S4) and Pioneer have the full Traktor Scratch Control, all other midi controllers/devices have compability issues and cue drifts on jogwheels,motorized platters, pitch faders with less resolution,etc.

    btw I can beatjuggle with less cue drifts on my Technics SL-DZ and they are +17years old and use the same CD/Line RCA Inputs has Phase do

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 185 Saw

    Let’s imagine it performs properly for the 99% of Traktor target users…

    What’s that “target” demographics?

    They use turntables?

    What about MWM/Serato partnership? Does it limit what other brands could do “legally” (not like Vdj)?

    Why isn’t a clear statement from NI about “what’s truly next” for Traktor?


    I hope my guts will be wrong but and NI releases what forum people like you ask for but I’m not going to hold my breath…

  • pARty_bOy
    pARty_bOy Member Posts: 13 Sine
    edited March 15

    Yes I hope your guts will be wrong! yes I believe major users of Phase are nerds who love Turntables but cant balance tonearms, geeks who damage styluses all the time with their sloppy hands, and freak out once they have like ground issue.... if its just for mixing , who cares about cue drift? if it just for ocasional scratchers who scratch looking at the screen instead of the record, then Phase works great for them. for me Phase its not good enough, I am a Turntablist!


    I just got an answer from NI they accepted my request and it could be considered in a future release. so Phase & Traktor TT Users open a support ticket to request Phase Support and maybe HID or some better performance without Drifts


    Testing Phase & Traktor

    https://www.facebook.com/dani.pARtybOy/videos/221220576860493/ +25 min calibrating and switching radio channels to avoid cue drifts

    https://www.facebook.com/dani.pARtybOy/videos/668569520860927/ +15 min calibrating

    Testing Phase & Virtual DJ - Plug & Play and no Cue Drifts: no Calibration needed or Switching Radio Channels,

    I got some Cue Drifts at start but after I raised "TimeCode Silence" to 0.02ms it got very tight.

    https://www.facebook.com/dani.pARtybOy/videos/1017536272504173/

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 185 Saw

    Again…

    it’s not only about hardware side but also how Traktor manages timecode (vs NoiseMap serato and whatever Vdj improved over their latest versions (I remember time ago some videos about scratching))

    It’s about business and licenses.

    Traktor needs to improve:

    Timecode tracking for slow scratching and absolute position (almost to the point to Serato/Vdj)

    How manage turntable controllers (aside S4mk3). It seems related to first point.

    Make a deal (licensing) with MWM to implement Phase Api inside Traktor (and then see how it goes due the previous points)

    Justify such investment to investors (Francisco Partners group // iZotope group since it was somekind of merging) related to target demographics (which we don’t know).


    As I said probably 99% of djs will get satisfied with Phase performing on Serato. That’s why MWM did the deal with them also… it was oriented to the same target demographics/users which btw aren’t Traktor’s. Just look at Serato partnerships and hardware release for it vs NI whole strategy. Supporting Twelve mk2 in hybrid mode or avoiding latest denon deck controller… something is happening/coming but hardly Phase support.


    Maybe for mk2 or custom solution from NI but I will not expect any of them soon.

    You can believe NI can get similar “cue drifting” like Serato or Vdj (which die hard scratchers will not use for instrumentalism scratching but these aren’t using Traktor neither) but NI target demographics seems very far from Turntables nowadays. Let’s hope I’m wrong but reasons to keep my statement (specially related to Traktor) are valid and hardly supoorting HID native mode in Traktor will improve cue drift in Traktor (until hard overhaul happens like Serato and Vdj had in the past focusing on scratching improvements).

    Traktor timecode at 2Khz was slld as twice resolution back in the day and that’s ok for mixing but not so easy for scratching, slow drags and… cue drift (based on timecode and based on what seems a custom HID system inside Traktor ok for s4mk3 but not available for anything else…)

    Ask DjQuartz…

  • pARty_bOy
    pARty_bOy Member Posts: 13 Sine

    then we agree to disagree, Traktor has the best sound algorithm, and the best slow scratch analog sound emulation ask DJ Qbert.

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 185 Saw

    Maybe 3 with the update I didn’t test it myself. Usually Serato Pitch&time is seen as “the best”. I was referring to it of course…

    Anyways that’s just one point of many and not the most important to get your Phase HID support from NI. Even with technical side improvements there will still be the business side issue.


    Maybe you should do a poll and see how many (forum) users almost support the idea ;)

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