Does anyone have problems getting consistent playback with Session Guitarist/Strummed Acoustic?

jimchik
jimchik Member Posts: 15 Member
edited February 2023 in Other Software & Hardware

I’ve been scratching my head for too many hours trying to figure out how to get consistent playback or to even get the chords to change where I want them to consistently.


DP 11.21/Kontakt 6.7.1/MBP 10.15.7 (Catalina)


When I’m playing back a MIDI passage, some measures play back correctly, some don’t. I’ve tried both quantizing and shifting note start times a bit earlier. I’ve played with the note releases and the release settings in the instrument… Honestly, I feel like I’ve tried everything at least 5 times, but with no consistent results.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Best Answer

  • DunedinDragon
    DunedinDragon Member Posts: 426 Pro
    edited February 2023 Answer ✓

    I use a lot of the different session guitarist libraries and I've never had a problem other than initially getting used to the triggering time which is pretty much the same as you would have in switching between chords on an actual guitar. The other thing is how to position the articulation or pattern change MIDI notes so it affects the appropriate chord/pattern at the right time. It's not hard, it just needs to be precise. It's easiest to start a chord slightly ahead of the measure and put the change note on the measure so the change note affects the right chord. If you do change patterns over the course of the song you have to remember there's only one pattern in use at a time. If you have a pattern set later in the track and then reposition the playback to a section that's earlier, you'll still have the same pattern set from the previous section. Again the fix for this is to apply the pattern note across the entire span of where that pattern will be played.

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Answers

  • Brad Yost
    Brad Yost Member Posts: 350 Pro

    Since most of the MIDI loops that drive the patterns are a full measure long (unless you go to the edit page and change the start/stop/loop points in the pattern), they will stop within the stop parameter that you set in the release time (1/8, 1/4, et al). But if you play the pattern for, say, 3 eighth notes with an 8th note release, it can be expected that the pattern will likely actually play for a half note (pattern dependent, obviously).

    As for the patterns not starting on time, I've never had any issues (Win10/Nuendo) as long as they're quantized. I will sometimes advance the entire MIDI track offset by a few ticks to get it just a touch ahead of the beat tho.

  • jimchik
    jimchik Member Posts: 15 Member

    Thanks for the reply.

    As for the issue of starting on time, I’ve certainly tried both quantizing and changing the start point a few ticks (or more), but again with no consistent results. And for no apparent reason, often enough, the loop will just stop a moment after it’s started. Another issue I’ve forgotten to mention. This happens often when there’s a chord change triggered. And yes, I of course checked for overlapping durations, etc. But overall, and this can’t be restated often enough, any changes are inconsistent. Even when I play it live to the track, it may all work as desired. But then on playback, well, it will take a few passes to get it to play properly, without having changed any of the data in the track.

    Could it be a DP issue? Clearly, there’s a bug somewhere.

  • Jojo123
    Jojo123 Member Posts: 231 Advisor

    Ive found getting the triggering right to be somewhat finnicky. I get the best results by making sure everything is slightly ahead of the beat. This is whats recommended in the documentation. IIRC they advise against quantizing but I find its better to Q then shift everything ahead a little, especially the keyswitches. Maybe its just me but I think in some cases at least, if you dont Q chords, some notes can get cut off and other weird anomolies. As a K13 UCE owner, Ive seen only the Strummed Accoustic will let you set it to stop instantly when you stop playing. I wished they all had that feature.

  • Uwe303
    Uwe303 Moderator Posts: 3,035 mod

    Hello,

    those instruments are really tricky, for example if you set it to stop instantly it only stops if the gap between notes is greater than one 1/8th note, otherwise it keeps playing the phrase in background and the notes are working like gates. Normal notes you can set on time, just the phrase triggers you can place a bit ahead. But i think those instruments are designed that way, as phrase players. But if you use auto chord it works the way you want if i understand you correctly.

  • Jojo123
    Jojo123 Member Posts: 231 Advisor

    @Uwe303 dont know if you were replying to me but yes they are tricky to get right (the phrases). Takes a bit of practise to get used to - especially (additionally) doing the keyswitches when you are used to playing a keyboard like a piano. (ie playing in the key of C but you want to move between a Db keyswitch and say, Eb)

    But as you say, the instant stop thing depends, though Id never thought about it long enough to realize about the gating effect. I haven't experimented with auto chord at all. Where I can I set things to play "as played". I do find with the K13 UCE theres some good options to mix these guitars with melodic and pattern based, like playing them together (simultaneously) as long as you set up the right patterns in the right slots to compliment each other.

  • jimchik
    jimchik Member Posts: 15 Member

    Heh… not just tricky to get right… I’d be happy if it played back the same way twice in a row. There’s no way I’d even think about using this live on a gig, given the hours spent diddlying with it in my DAW.


    And the KeySwitch thing is not a concern… it’s a part of everything I do these days.

  • Uwe303
    Uwe303 Moderator Posts: 3,035 mod

    The chord feature is right above the box with the phrases, left side. It's strange that ,if that is enabled, the phrase stops right after releasing note and next chord plays the phrase from start but without it needs the gap of a 1/8th note to stop (if set to stop instantly) and then the next trigger let's it start from beginning. And if you play something please look at the bar under the phrase, then you can see where in the phrase you are, they are mostly 2 bars long, if tempo is set to 1:1. For me it made things more obvious.

  • Jojo123
    Jojo123 Member Posts: 231 Advisor

    @jimchik I can get results consistent enough to be useable as I work on my projects but I concur, I wouldn't like to be using these instruments live. Im In Logic and though I've seen a bit of funky behaviour, its not often enough for me to call it a bug, but as Uwe said these instruments are tricky to get right. Of course I wouldn't rule out buginess but in my case I've put it down more to just needing to work with these instruments to get the hang of how they work. For sure, the actual quality of these instruments is really nice, but playing them efficiently is another matter.

    @Uwe303 so I did go and play around with those auto chords, but cant remember if they stopped instantly or not. I was quite intrigued by how the other notes in the octave were used. In any case theres always those other key switches which do a hard stop /upward single strum or downward single strum - etc - those will stop a pattern in its tracks.

  • Uwe303
    Uwe303 Moderator Posts: 3,035 mod

    I also don't think it's a bug i guess the session instruments are really made to use the phrases as a whole. But a request for stopping playback immediately if set so would make sense and would make the instruments more versatile.

  • jimchik
    jimchik Member Posts: 15 Member

    Hey Uwe, so yeah… I just revisited the track I was working on. While the strummed guitar mostly played back perfectly on the first pass, there was a road bump where I had a sus4 triggered… that venerable stopping of the sample for no apparent reason. Played around (including playing the phrase from my controller, not from the sequencer) and a couple of passes later it played back ok.

    And yeah, I love the up/down buttons offered, the subtle fret noises… Overall, authentic sounding.

    Heh… now if I could only figure out how to edit or build my own patterns/grooves… 😏

  • Uwe303
    Uwe303 Moderator Posts: 3,035 mod

    Ohh and one thing i also forgot to mention, it can be important to start playback at a x*2 or x*4 (x is a whole number) bar from start on to get consistent results.

  • jimchik
    jimchik Member Posts: 15 Member

    Heh… Wahnsinn… well, I look forward to refinements. Maybe already there in the new Komplete…?

    glg

  • DunedinDragon
    DunedinDragon Member Posts: 426 Pro
    edited February 2023 Answer ✓

    I use a lot of the different session guitarist libraries and I've never had a problem other than initially getting used to the triggering time which is pretty much the same as you would have in switching between chords on an actual guitar. The other thing is how to position the articulation or pattern change MIDI notes so it affects the appropriate chord/pattern at the right time. It's not hard, it just needs to be precise. It's easiest to start a chord slightly ahead of the measure and put the change note on the measure so the change note affects the right chord. If you do change patterns over the course of the song you have to remember there's only one pattern in use at a time. If you have a pattern set later in the track and then reposition the playback to a section that's earlier, you'll still have the same pattern set from the previous section. Again the fix for this is to apply the pattern note across the entire span of where that pattern will be played.

  • Uwe303
    Uwe303 Moderator Posts: 3,035 mod
    edited February 2023

    played i bit more around with this stuff, i normally don´t use it that often and found out it can be really useful to shorten the phrase if you just want to use the first part of the phrase or just some part of it. And it makes playback consistent - maybe + option key trigger, the more i play with this instruments the more i like them - really great stuff


  • jimchik
    jimchik Member Posts: 15 Member

    Ok... yeah, I understand the chord or pattern change thing. Like with anything that's keyswitched, one has to track it. But your message gives me hope... ;-)

    Have you found any way to create your own patterns? Is that a possibility, even?

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