Long USB cable for S61 MKIii

adambrower
adambrower Member Posts: 6 Newcomer
in Other Software & Hardware

Running an M1 Mac. The supplied cable works, but is too short for my studio setup. NI docs specify codes for compatible cables, but no vendor provides these codes! Every replacement I have used fails: no access to DAW, browser button fails to function, etc. Does anyone have source for a ~12 ft USB cable (data + power) that will work? I'm at my wit's end, about to give up and return the hardware (which would suck, because I looove the keybed and like using KK).

NI's information is not of much use, because (see above) the specs they require are not included in any vendor's product descriptions:

I would include a link to NI's doc on compatible cables here, but apparently I can't post a link (TO NI'S OWN WEBSITE!) because I haven't been "around" long enough.🙁

Why the $&@#%! can't NI recognize that this is a common problem and provide a source for a longer compatible cable?! (No one is going to rearrange an entire studio to accommodate their dinky cable! Not me, at least…)

I've read dozens of posts here without finding a simple answer: like a link to a long compatible cable that has worked for another user.

Fingers crossed…Any insight welcome!

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Best Answer

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 4,925 mod
    edited November 25 Answer ✓
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/39043/long-usb-cable-for-s61-mkiii

    I've read dozens of posts here without finding a simple answer: like a link to a long compatible cable that has worked for another user.

    I found the below for you. Please notice that I can not vouch for information given.

    Quote BillW32 :
    I had success using a Cable Matters 5m/16.4 ft Active USB-C cable (model 201034) with my S61 MK3 connected to an M2 Mac Studio. This works for powering the Mk3 as well although I've chosen to use the dedicated power port anyway. For me it was plug-and-play solution for the required long cable run. (Link inserted by Moderator not by original user)

    Quote TomSynsongs :
    I can also recommend this 5m cable
    PHIXERO USB C auf USB C Kabel 100W (20GBPS)
    https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/B09YTWX7FD/
    It works on the back right port of the Mac Studio M2 without any issues and no need for an additional power supply (once the keyboard has been firmware update

    P.S.

    The greater problem and the reason for your confusion is that the general discussions builds on a misunderstanding about USB-A and USB-C. USB-A and USB-C are merely port and plug types. These ports and cables with fitting plugs can be used by a number of USB versions (check my confusing post here where I try to describe this) . So what you really need is to find cables that is certified for the correct USB version. My guess is that if a cable is certified for data transfer for a new/high enough USB standard and at the same time is capable of power transfer then it generally ought to work (in the cases where the issue is only about the cable). From what other people writes then that suggests that if the cable is certified for e.g. USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 then that ought to be OK. Though please notice that in the case of 'active' cables such as those mentioned above then, if you read reviews, some users still reports incompatibility with their specific units, which is impossible to tell if it is about the unit or about the cable chips set used.

Answers

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 4,925 mod
    edited November 25 Answer ✓
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/39043/long-usb-cable-for-s61-mkiii

    I've read dozens of posts here without finding a simple answer: like a link to a long compatible cable that has worked for another user.

    I found the below for you. Please notice that I can not vouch for information given.

    Quote BillW32 :
    I had success using a Cable Matters 5m/16.4 ft Active USB-C cable (model 201034) with my S61 MK3 connected to an M2 Mac Studio. This works for powering the Mk3 as well although I've chosen to use the dedicated power port anyway. For me it was plug-and-play solution for the required long cable run. (Link inserted by Moderator not by original user)

    Quote TomSynsongs :
    I can also recommend this 5m cable
    PHIXERO USB C auf USB C Kabel 100W (20GBPS)
    https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/B09YTWX7FD/
    It works on the back right port of the Mac Studio M2 without any issues and no need for an additional power supply (once the keyboard has been firmware update

    P.S.

    The greater problem and the reason for your confusion is that the general discussions builds on a misunderstanding about USB-A and USB-C. USB-A and USB-C are merely port and plug types. These ports and cables with fitting plugs can be used by a number of USB versions (check my confusing post here where I try to describe this) . So what you really need is to find cables that is certified for the correct USB version. My guess is that if a cable is certified for data transfer for a new/high enough USB standard and at the same time is capable of power transfer then it generally ought to work (in the cases where the issue is only about the cable). From what other people writes then that suggests that if the cable is certified for e.g. USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 then that ought to be OK. Though please notice that in the case of 'active' cables such as those mentioned above then, if you read reviews, some users still reports incompatibility with their specific units, which is impossible to tell if it is about the unit or about the cable chips set used.

  • PK The DJ
    PK The DJ Member Posts: 1,941 Expert
    edited November 25

    From Google:

    "The maximum length of a USB Type-C cable depends on the USB version and the cable's intended use:

    USB 3.2 Gen 2: The maximum length is 1 meter.

    USB 3.2 Gen 1: The maximum length is 2 meters.

    USB 3.0: The maximum length is 3 meters.

    • USB 2.0: The maximum length is 4 meters. 
    • Longer cables can still be used, but the data transfer speeds will be lower. Longer cables can also cause issues with voltage drop and power loss. This is because longer cables have higher electrical resistance and are more susceptible to interference, which can weaken the data signal."

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 4,925 mod
    edited November 25
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/193322#Comment_193322

    Apparently then "the internet" is not completely in agreement about that :

    USB Standards, Speeds and Cable Length Limits

    USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 , 20 Gb/s , 3 m (9 ft.)

    Source 1 : How to beat the maximum length of a USB cable? (includes a section called 4 ways to beat USB cable length limitations)

    Source 2 : I need a longer USB Cable. What are my options?

    Also : quote source 2 :

    In order for the signal to travel further distances, you'll need active repeater USB cables. These powered cables boost and repeat the signal over a longer distance to get from point A to point B. For USB 2.0 connections, the maximum length of an active USB cable is 98 feet. For USB 3.2 Gen1/Gen 2 connections, the maximum length of an active USB cable is 59 feet. 

    Active repeater USB cables can be daisy chained, as long as each cable has it's own power supply.

    To go even further, you can convert USB to Cat5 cable, which can easily run 328 feet. This can be accomplished by using extenders such at these. Remember to pay attention to the USB version of your cable so you can get the maximum data transfer rate.


  • PK The DJ
    PK The DJ Member Posts: 1,941 Expert
    edited November 25

    In basic terms though (TL;DR) the longer the cable, the more likely you'll have issues.

    Probably also worth applying the same rule to cheapness of cables.

    NI are not to blame here. The supplied cable is short for a reason. The truth is out there.

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 4,925 mod
    edited November 25
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/193324#Comment_193324

    In basic terms though (TL;DR) the longer the cable, the more likely you'll have issues.

    Probably also worth applying the same rule to cheapness of cables.

    Absolutely right - on both counts , which is why so many people including myself have had bad experiences with using long cables even for USB 2.0 . Poor cables simply do not cut it and neither do things work if knowledge or workmanship of manufacturer is too poor. So using a certified cable of good quality from a trustworthy brand manufacturer increases chances of stuff working. Though mind you also brand name manufacturers does not spend more than they have to on e.g. material quality as little as they will spend money on making a cable capable of doing what it is not certified of doing - unless it is cheaper manufacturing wise to sell the same cable as two different ones. So people always ought to pay attention when browsing for e.g. cables.

    Also , I don't know if other people have the same problems with cables that I do. I have quite a lot of cables bought over time because the latest bought cable is certified for something that the older were not. But throwing the cables in the same box and nothing is written on the cable then when I need a cable then I have no idea what it was that the cable is certified for - or not certified for , so it all tends to become an ugly mess that is impossible to keep track of and one ends up really needing a cable tester of some sorts 🤔😁

  • adambrower
    adambrower Member Posts: 6 Newcomer

    Thanks for the responses. Your attention is very much appreciated. For the record, I have bought and tested both recommended cables:

    Cable Matters 5m/16.4 ft Active USB-C cable (model 201034) == FAIL

    PHIXERO USB C auf USB C Kabel 100W (20GBPS) == FAIL

    They both fail with these symptoms: pressing DAW button yields control of DAW, but subsequent presses of Browser and Plug-Ins buttons have no effect: the S61 display continues to show the DAW. If I reboot the S61, the Browser and Plug-ins buttons function, but only until I press the DAW button. Then it's back to FAIL.

    To be clear, none of these problems arise with the short cable provided with the S61. So I will be spending hours and hours rearranging my entire studio to accommodate the Native Instruments' cable. Am I stupid or what? Go figure. I just love the keybed, and KK is so useful that I'm biting the bullet, but NI will never get a good review from me after this debacle.

    "Frustrated" is the kindest word I can think of. The others are NSFW.

    I don't understand why I should have to become an expert in the varieties ands specs of USB-C cables just to plug in a controller and make music. Seems to me that is the responsibility of the guys who got my 850 bucks for the device. Am I mistaken? I dunno.

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 4,925 mod

    @Matthew_NI , do you have a better suggestion for a long cable ? Than what has been reported to fail here though reported as working by others ?

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,454 mod
    edited December 11

    I suspect it has nothing to do with cables.

    I can see in @adambrower 's forum profile he may have a particular chipset that may be (I can't say) problematic per what I'll paste below. The symptom he describes is exactly this (MIDI is sending properly (to the DAW) but the USB protocol for K and KK integration are not).

    USB-C Connectivity Issue:

    Problem:
    Some computer chipsets made between 2020 and 2023 have a known USB-C error that can't be fixed. This can cause sporadic problems with USB-C peripherals like the Kontrol S MK3, including connection failures, freezing, or issues with firmware updates. It may appear that certain cables work and others do not, but this is a red herring.

    Solution:
    If you experience these issues, try using a USB-C hub between your Kontrol S MK3 and your computer. This can help avoid the problem and ensure a stable connection. This is critically important during firmware updates, as data loss could cause broken firmware. Make sure the hub supports both power and data transfer.


  • adambrower
    adambrower Member Posts: 6 Newcomer

    Thanks for your input, Matthew. Very much appreciated. FYI, I am indeed running an M1 Mac mini, so the chipset theory may hold. However, I haven't tried interposing a powered hub—as best I can recall. I tried so many solutions that I frankly forget exactly what they were :)

    I'll try the hub tactic this evening when I get to the studio. Since I already rearranged things to accommodate the supplied cable (which works flawlessly) that will be strictly to benefit future readers of this forum.

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