The Sheer Joy of 3.10.2
Comments
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I've never had Komplete Kontrol, or Maschine. So in my case it's not related to those.
We have a good explanation of the intent behind NTKDaemon, and I don't see anything in the logs which disagrees with the stated purpose. There is no evidence of some grand secret (yet so easily discoverable) scheme by NI to... what, exactly?
This is a bug. The behaviour is odd, but not nefarious. Unexpected behaviour happens. I've written enough software with enough developers, and used enough software written by others, to know that sometimes strange things happen that could not have been predicted or easily caught in testing. Whatever causes these particular plugins to be scanned, it's clear NTKDaemon is not scanning all plugins. There is something about these which triggers the scan.
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I just spent some time exploring the daemon process as it relates to scanning in Komplete Kontrol and here's what I more or less see happening. First, I have little to no delay with the scanning process. As best I can tell the ability to change scanning preferences in KK seems to be related to how KK categorizes the libraries by vendor. You can add user locations for the scanning but unless the library is fully Kontakt compatible (not just compliant) it will scan it but it won't incorporate it into KK or into Native Access. I suspect this has to do with the differences in how you filter and audition libraries in KK.
In Kontakt, of course, you can create links to NI compliant libraries and import them separately. That tells me KK probably has the expanded requirements for working with external devices and therefore needs full compliance at least as far as their browser is concerned. Of course you can still drag and drop a NI compliant library into KK as an instrument in the instrument window with obvious limitations in functionality in a lot of cases.
A lot of these things would be much easier for users to troubleshoot if NI would simply be more forthcoming about the how's and why's of the scanning process and how it gets used in the different environments instead of it being this big mysterious process we can only guess at.
I did verify what you discovered as far as libraries listed in KK that weren't really valid for KK usage by deleting them which did seem to slightly improve the loading time. It's hard for me to really say how much improvement there was because my scanning notice in KK or Kontakt or NA is very quick and pretty much just flashes by, but it "seemed" a bit faster.
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It worked fine for me too...yesterday it was, I think.
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Not "victim shaming", no. But it might be illustrative about the differences in equipment, internet service, and many other factors.
It is what it is. And, shock of shockers, it might not even be Native Instruments' fault.
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If there is a way I can help when somebody else is having a problem and I'm not, I would. Usually I'm pretty good about asking for more info. But this thread started out sounding like the OP didn't care to have help from a fellow user. Worded the way it was, that is. I'm glad @Hayo_NI jumped in, and I hope the OPs issue gets worked out.
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Not "victim shaming", no. But it might be illustrative about the differences in equipment, internet service, and many other factors.
It is what it is. And, shock of shockers, it might not even be Native Instruments' fault.
And it might also well be...no other software hosts have the same problem and so far NI have done precious little to deal with it and some of these problems affect not just NA2
All PK the DJ has opined is that it is my fault... I must have caused it...by what exactly?
How so? I tried to put a vaguely humorous bent on something that has frustrated users for months and months with little or no response from NI itself...and it is they that write the code. There was very little useful input till others actually stated they were having problems too, otherwise those not experiencing problems thought that blaming me because their installations were OK was some kind of solution.
So tell me just how did I not care to have help......................................
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A lot of these things would be much easier for users to troubleshoot if NI would simply be more forthcoming about the how's and why's of the scanning process and how it gets used in the different environments instead of it being this big mysterious process we can only guess at.
The million-dollar question, and why has it taken them months of problems being reported to respond in any kind of fashion?
Some think this is not nefarious... OK... but why is it looking for licences, and why can it not find them when they are patently there?
Why is it in any way in the code to scan for VST's in the first place?
I've been led to believe it is the plugins' problem, yet no other software has any issues and presumably if I do actually find problematic plugins that are in theory causing issues, rather than NI address what the problem is, they will probably just think I, or anyone else shouldn't use those plugins
When Falcon 3 was released, there was an issue with Falcon and Maschine. I informed both parties.
UVI messaged me every day till they discovered a workaround. The problem was with Maschine as far as I can ascertain, but NI's response was oh Maschines code is old, there's a workaround, just use that.
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How so? I tried to put a vaguely humorous bent on something that has frustrated users for months and months with little or no response from NI itself...and it is they that write the code. There was very little useful input till others actually stated they were having problems too, otherwise those not experiencing problems thought that blaming me because their installations were OK was some kind of solution.
So tell me just how did I not care to have help......................................
I got no humorous bent from your post. That's not a diss...but it does illustrate that we don't always perceive humor the same way.
Other than that, I can't tell you how you did not care to have help, because I am not in your head. What I said is that BASED ON YOUR WORDING, I INFERRED THAT YOU WERE NOT LOOKING FOR HELP. I thought you were just venting.
So maybe I was wrong on that. But you chose the words and you formatted your initial post. We all read other people's words in the context of our own experiences. Hey, I'm just trying to live in this world too, lol! I get it right most of the time, but not that time, I guess.
And one last thing: I've said this before, and I'll say it again and again until the day I die.
Sometimes I post an "it's working for me" as a way for me to drop an anchor in that thread for future reference...like if I think of something later on that didn't occur to me. "Oh hey, OP, while I was goofing off in the kitchen, I did remember that I had an issue last summer. You might try the flibbertygibbit option on the Audio settings tab."
It also lets the OP know I'm watching that thread...so they can query me further if they want to. "Hey BIF, what's your setting on the chacha-slider?" And THEN we can have a conversation! Oh, and the world needs more chacha. 😉
But then as I kept reading this thread, I could see it just devolved into "people saying no problem here are just accusing me of doing something wrong!" At this point, I was ready to stop following the thread, and that can't ever help anybody. I'm glad Hayo jumped in and said that it was a known issue and NI needed more info and logs, etcetera...otherwise I might not have come back.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, and good luck getting your issue solved.
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I thought you were just venting.
Certainly venting, and I would have thought that by illustrating just how screwed up NA2 is for some people, they'd pick up on the 'humour'.
Thing is, these problems have been going on and posted about for months and months and yes it's great-ish that Hayo_NI interjected, but why didn't he do so months ago when problems were being reported. Why are most of the NI staff repeatedly ignoring very blatant problems with their current approach to their software and hoping that the people suffering rather than the problems will go away?
Hard to see any positives, but I more than welcome any interjection from anyone from NI to show a brighter picture than is seemingly on offer so far..............................
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I think the scanning of most VST's are relating to any VST's which are NKS compatible.
Vsts like U-he which may have nothing to do with Native Instruments, but which are NKS compatible.
So while it may seem its scanning the VST folders, I think its checking service center, and any VST which were installed with NKS.
I could be wrong here. But thats my reason for all these entries in the Daemon.log and Daemon.Log1
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(Just FYI: This will be the last time I reply here.)
With due respect, and I totally understand your frustration, but you keep asking us the same questions all over again. "Us", because this here is yet another thread and not a private PM/DM to Hayo (kudos to him for joining here). We don't know the answers (e.g. why NTKDaemon keeps scanning VSTs or eats away your CPU ressources) and never will.
What we can do is try to determine what could be the potential cause of your issues and if it's really Native Access alone and/or not any additional factor(s) at play. Because, yes, every system is different.
If you believe it's because NTKDaemon is scanning all of your 1000+ plugins, then half them and see if things improve. If not, half them again and see if things improve. If things do improve, congrats - you were right all along and it's likely that NTKDaemon can't handle that massive amount and needs further improvement. If still no improvement, then other stuff may be at fault. Yes, this is hella time consuming and a painstaking process, but IMHO a necessary thing to do if you really want to confirm your assumption instead of keep on saying "Native Access sucks, NI fix it already!!!". Cuz that ain't helpful.
Hopefully, whatever causes all these issues for you gets fixed soon. And I say this out of sympathy.
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Obviously not expecting you to reply, but please consider.
As I keep saying, the scanning behaviour affects not just NA2, but Kontakt, KK and Maschine.
The reason I made so many posts was after months of being ignored, I brought it up on each of the relevant forums as well as the beta forums and bug reports. Should I have had to do that to get a response?... I would say no.
There is more than one post in the NA forum because they keep releasing what appear to be very much untested versions that are causing people a large amount of anguish and not responding afaics till now.
As you seem to have noticed, it doesn't scan all plugins, it repeatedly scans some and shouldn't be scanning any. It also does not appear to be that related to the amount of plugins.
To keep going through the plugins and then opening up Maschine when it's opening times can be anything from 5 mins to hours if it triggers a complete rescan, as it can do, is a very arduous task that could take days and days. I am a full-time carer and don't have endless time to deal with something I don't see as a problem of my creation. The theoretical outcome of that being that in theory any problematic plugins would be unusable with NI products. I have been more than willing to do anything I have time or capability to do to assist on these issues, and have been very transparent about things. If only NI had been so too, then these problems may have been fixed.
I am not just saying NI sucks, fix this, I am saying if it is me causing the problem then let's look at the issues and point me in a direction where I can actually help, but I'm not willing to spend huge amounts of unpaid time just to prove it isn't an issue from me when they do little if anything or even openly acknowledge the problems.
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In my case, if I go by what Process Monitor shows, it is mainly repeatedly scanning what are currently but not solely non NKS plugins.
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Found some new interesting data here - seems my initial theory was incorrect
In my first tests - and my log - I thought the plugins I see listed there were the exact ones (and the ONLY ones) I had chosen to use within Komplete Kontrol (have the "checkmark" to be scanned in Komplete Kontrol)
To be 100% sure that I am seeing is what I think I am seeing - I went into KK v2.9.6 and UNCHECKED one of the NKS instruments that was checked and was appearing in the log. I rescanned the KK db to make sure it was aware of this removal and closed KK. I then fired up NA to allow it to refresh the log.
NA came back with a Kontakt Update too (bonus) so I updated that and closed NA.
The daemon.log file had new entries after all this action but the plugin list for this last activity above - was the exact same as before I made the changes above. The single NKS compatible plugin that I "unchecked" was still listed in the log - proving my first theory was wrong. So where is this list of stuff coming from?
After more digging - it "appears" the source of the plugin list in the log is an obscure directory (in Windows anyway) of C:\Users\Public\Documents\Native Instruments\installed_products
This folder contains a truckload of .json files - each one clearly labelled for the plugin it belongs to. A quick look at their content reveals a path (or for other files) multiple paths for their installed content and plugin location.
It appears that these files are created either by NTKDaemon.exe (or some other process) at a known interval (see my timestamp info below) - but most certainly when NA is "updated".
It is also clear that WHEN parsing these files (to write them in the log at specific intervals) - NTKDaemon.exe knows exactly which JSON files belong to:
- Native NI Plugins (NKS compatible)
- Native NI Expansions (all my expansions have a .JSON in here)
- NI Native and Partner Kontakt content plugins (Like Play series or Abbey Road drummer or Wave Alchemy Bassynth etc)
I have confirmed that exactly no plugin that meets the above criteria appears "listed" in daemon.log.
The only plugins listed in my daemon.log - AND have a matching .JSON file in this directory - have two things in common:
- Are non-native to NI (AKA "third party" - like Waves, iZotope, u-he etc.)
- But are uniquely NKS compatible. (Confirmed)
How these .JSON files get here is now solved as well - each and every JSON file I have - has a creation date of 4/18/2024 starting at 9:56:41 am (MST) - the exact moment that I updated NA to 3.10.3 two days ago.
Again - what this .JSON plugin scan behavior is required for, how these .JSON files get created (and what creates them - although it looks like NA?) and why NTKDaemon needs to know about this stuff is a mystery but there is most certainly a purpose here.
I am also guessing for those with super long NA install/scan times - your JSON folder is going to be jammed with hundreds of files - each taking a pile of time to be created, parsed and used for some purpose.
VP
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Nice cyber-sleuthing there......👌
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