Kontrol S61/S49 MK3 Velocity Response

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  • davinwv
    davinwv Member Posts: 23 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/107738#Comment_107738

    Does anyone know how we can advise the dev team of this?

    @EvilDragon - any ideas?

  • dinu
    dinu Member Posts: 7 Member

    Oh my God...

    I play the white keys and then the black keys, with the same amount of force, and it's a huge difference. Its look (feel it) like 2 different keyboards.

  • Babrekulf
    Babrekulf Member Posts: 18 Member

    @Jeremy_NI any thougths on this?

    Could it be fixed with a firmware update? And could you make it a priority to fix?

    It´s really terrible.

  • Jeremy_NI
    Jeremy_NI Customer Care Posts: 12,402 mod

    @dinu I've given you a badge to be able to post links, please post it here.

  • Jeremy_NI
    Jeremy_NI Customer Care Posts: 12,402 mod

    I'm trying to get some info and see if this issue was already reported.

  • davinwv
    davinwv Member Posts: 23 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/109597#Comment_109597

    Thanks very much, @Jeremy_NI. I knew pretty early on that something was off with the action on mine, but I tried to convince myself that I just needed to acclimated to a more premium keybed.

    As it stands, the action (especially the black keys) is not well suited for any type of nuanced playing. I'm really surprised no one caught this during the development/beta phase.

    Thanks very much for all you've doing in an attempt to address this issue. Bluntly, a controller this expensive should play much better.

  • Jeremy_NI
    Jeremy_NI Customer Care Posts: 12,402 mod

    Hey all, so I've got some feedback on that from our QA. the S49/S61 models contains a Fatar semi-weighted keybed and are designed to provide a balanced response. Typically, there is still a bit of a difference in velocity or responsiveness between black and white keys. But not to the degree of noticeability as in say fully graded hammer action keyboards.

    So a slight difference compared to our previous keyboards can be expected.

    I've tested it on a few libraries and monitored the MIDI input, with and without aftertouch, tried different velocity curves, nothing out of the ordinary or feeling "off".

    If any of you have the impression that the keyboard might be faulty and would not give the full velocity range, I would first try to monitor the MIDI input, with aftertouch off, to see velocity (aka channel pressure) is fully present in the readings: How to Monitor the Input of a MIDI Controller

    Also maybe you can give us examples of velocity settings and which libraries you used, so we can have a common ground.

  • davinwv
    davinwv Member Posts: 23 Member
    edited November 2023
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/109708#Comment_109708

    I'm traveling right now, but I will conduct some detailed tests and post here about them next week.

    The issue presents itself the worst when glissing from a black keys to a white key when playing acoustic and electric piano libraries (VI Labs Ravenscroft 275, Scarbee Classic EP88S, and NI Vintage Keys Mark 1 Rhodes are the worst offenders here). I've tried Linear and all the "Hard" curves, with aftertouch on and off, and the issue persists.

    I'm a jazz/rock/R&B/soul player, so I do this a lot.

  • Babrekulf
    Babrekulf Member Posts: 18 Member
    edited November 2023

    I have been testing this issue out a bit more. Like davinwv, i have a hard time getting used to the "feel" of the keybed, i find that the black keys are way hotter but ALSO the velocity response of both black and white keys are not linear at all. I´ve tried all velocity-curves and used the midi monitor to see what the keybed sends out.

    I have narrowed down the issues to this:

    • Black keys generally have a hotter velocity output.
    • Quickly and lightly tapping a key gives a way higher velocity than pressing it with the same force. When playing, i notice that a lot of notes stand out and have max velocity. I often use my thumps for small ghost note (like playing a clavinet) and they are all at 127. This is more apparent on the black keys but also prominent on the white.
    • The keybed feels somewhat linear up to around 90, after that you mostly get 127 notes and they stick out like a sore thumb when playing gently/pianissimo.

    This is very apparent when playing piano plugins, i´ve tried with Ivory II, Keyscape and Pianoteq 8 and i get the max velocity quite often, without ever "hammering down" on the keybed. It really stands out, and i´m used to almost never getting max velocity in my normal playing.

    For reference, i´ve played classical piano since a young age, playing synths since my teens and owned most brand of synthezisers and midi-keyboards on the market (both with weighted keys and synth-keybeds). I recently had a Yamaha Montage 6 before swapping it out to the S61Mk1 and i have a Kawai "Grand Feel" electric piano.

    Before the Montage i had a Access Virus Ti 61 key (that also had a premium fatar keybed), a DX7IID, various Novation Controllers, Maschines etc... I also use a Roland A49 and an Akai (forgot the name) on a regular basis, mostly on stage.

    The S61Mk3 is vastly different from all of them and does not respond like I or anyone would expect. I cant even tune the velocity curve in any of the Piano-plugins to suite it.

    I think something is wrong with the calibration, it could of course be my unit that is off. As i wrote earlier, my friend has a NI A61 and i tried it just to see if it was a NI-tuning-thing but that felt completely normal, with a lower quality feel of course.

    Here is a video of me trying to demonstrate it, with a midi monitor on the screen:

    // can not post links, where can i send a dropbox-link to the video?? //

  • Babrekulf
    Babrekulf Member Posts: 18 Member
    edited November 2023

    I have recorded another video showing how the keybed behaves when playing really "percussive", i.e supershort but gentle taps. It sends mostly max velocity on the black keys and high velocity on the white. In this scenario i´m playing very gentle. I can post dropbox-links if someone upgrades this user account.

    Sidenote: i´ve tried aftertouch on/off and Midi 1.0/2.0.

    I think it has to do with the poly-aftertouch keybed. Both the key-travel and the velocity range is very limited compared to other similar keybeds.

  • Babrekulf
    Babrekulf Member Posts: 18 Member

    @Jeremy_NI can you upgrade my account and i will share the videos?

  • Jeremy_NI
    Jeremy_NI Customer Care Posts: 12,402 mod

    @Babrekulf Done, you can post links now.

  • Babrekulf
    Babrekulf Member Posts: 18 Member

    Thanks! Here is the two video examples. Playing very light and just tapping the keys results in high velocity, specially on the black keys.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/azyaydwhq25he6o4ukf0u/IMG_1204.MOV?rlkey=f9o6xdtmvz5tx98u5de0jsnlq&dl=0


    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2wqgcb1zrdykuasy6ahbj/IMG_1205.mov?rlkey=nzack7mg62mpjgbcsoagtfvgx&dl=0

  • davinwv
    davinwv Member Posts: 23 Member

    My unit exhibits very similar behavior, but also has hotter black key velocity when playing legato single note lines. I plan to ask my retailer (Sweetwater in the U.S.) for a replacement unit.

    But before I do, I would like to shoot some video to document it for this thread.

    @Jeremy_NI - May I have the ability to post links as well?

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,402 mod
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/111066#Comment_111066

    I must say - I watched this video and am not understanding the issue exactly.

    It appears to work as expected.

    It looks to me as more velocity in correlation with more force and speed applied to the keys.

    It also looks to me as if you're using more staccato velocity with the black key than you are with the white key, but expecting a consistent response across both keys.

    I'm not trying to be unhelpful here, but I'm unable to replicate the inconsistencies a few of you have reported myself as I play, and nor are our keyboard calibration machines, we check very specifically for an even response. All to say: it may be technique adapting to a new keybed.

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