Sustain pedal with maschine plus (m+) in standalone? (not in controller mode)

rmou
rmou Member Posts: 11 Member

Hi,

I can use the pedal socket to start/stop record (connecting just the tip of the jack) or to start/stop transport (connecting the ring) using a Nektar NP1 pedal. But i cannot use a Nektar NP2 as a sustain pedal.

Looking at the manual, it looks like one can change the function of the pedal socket (switch or continuous CC) using the controller editor but after experimenting with that it looks that it is only for controller mode and not for standalone.

So question is: can i use a sustain pedal with the m+ in standalone (not controller) mode?

Thanks in adavance

Comments

  • Blindeddie
    Blindeddie Member Posts: 1,559 Expert

    Pretty sure it is hardwired to be Playback/Record in Native mode and does not support "Sustain" as there is no " setting on the controller to modify the jacks functions...

  • rmou
    rmou Member Posts: 11 Member

    Thanks for your reply @Blindeddie

    This is very confusing to me. In section "4.5 Connecting a Pedal" of the maschine plus manual, one can read:

    "The PEDAL socket can also be configured to send Continuous MIDI CC messages in the Preferences of the Controller Editor software. For more information read the Controller Editor manual. "

    So this is just when using the m+ in controller mode? I cannot understand why would this be a design decision. If the hardware includes a pedal socket why not support one of most common use cases? (sustain pedal)

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 2,664 mod
    edited June 2022

    Good question, my guess would be most people performing on Pads don't require using sustain pedals, probably most people serious about that would be keyboard players and those probably use an external MIDI keyboard anyway... It still would be nice to have tho.

    Regarding not being able to change anything about the Pedal at all that's because Maschine+ SW is a port of computer SW, so many of the mouse/controller editor dependent features were not available at launch, some have been added with time so this will also be added eventually, probably...

  • rmou
    rmou Member Posts: 11 Member

    Hi @D-One,

    For example Ableton Push 2 has a sustain input jack and the Novation Launchpad (at least the mk3) has a dedicated pad for sustain. Both have just pads.

    I believe maschine is oriented more to music production and sometimes neglects the jam/live performance aspects in which, IMHO, it could excel and fill in a market gap.

    If you're producing, a sustain pedal is not that important .. but if you're jamming it could be really useful (leave sustain pressed and change group/instrument to play some other element).

    Another feature where you can see this is the arpeggiator. Once you find an arpeggio that you like, you can hold it (lock i believe) but if you change the group then you're done. The arp stops. Only workaround that i know is to record the midi .. which totally kills the aliveness of the improvisation.

    So thanks for your clarification and i hope NI puts these concerns into the product roadmap.

    All the best,

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 2,664 mod
    edited June 2022

    Hi @rmou , I agree with everything you're saying. You asked why it doesn't have it and I just took a wild guess, it doesn't mean I think it's justified.

    Yeah that arp 'hold' thing is a bit annoying aswell, MAS is designed with production in mind and live performance is not taken much into consideration... There's a quote by a higher-up in the company stating this in the old forum, not gonna try to dig for it tho.

    Cheers!

  • ozon
    ozon Member Posts: 1,224 Expert
    edited June 2022

    @D-One this seems actually to be a quite puzzling management decision since a standalone device such as Maschine+ screams «live jam» (especially when hooked up with a JAM).

    But it explains some of the stumbling blocks when trying to improvise on the M+ (which I generally attribute to my lack of knowledge and exercise).

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 2,664 mod
    edited June 2022

    Yeah, there's a chance it's an oversight since tbf this is the first time I've seen this issue mentioned.

    I find that for jamming/performance you kind of have to be a workaround master or have at least an extra MIDI device connected due to the nature of the focus system and menus, we can then force a MIDI device to control a Pad regardless of what's in focus or use it to change scenes/locks while being in another menu on the M+, or to always have access to macros.

    Having as much as possible in a single Group also helps a lot, kind of in the way Expansions Groups/Kits are laid out but there's really no perfect solution when the device is aimed at production.

    I guess with the release of the M+ the number of users interested in live performance is increasing, perhaps this makes the team rethink some things.

  • Mystic38
    Mystic38 Member Posts: 11 Member

    I have been a long time proponent of use of the pedal jack for sustain, as yes, it actually would be nice to play the pads... I find this to be a crippling non-feature of Maschine that, along with lack of custom chords has prevented me from my ante up on my third Maschine unit.

    But, back on sustain, it seems i nearly got fooled so I would respectfully draw someone's attention at NI to their own chart which clearly states that the pedal socket on mkIII and the plus both "automatically detect for sustain and expression pedals" here..

    https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/maschine/production-systems/maschine-plus/compare/

    please say it is so..

  • Blindeddie
    Blindeddie Member Posts: 1,559 Expert
    edited June 2022

    @Mystic38 I ran a few tests and was able to get an expression pedal to work with Maschine in Controller mode. If to open Controller Editor and go to preferences and select the Maschine tab, you can change the pedal jack to "Continous (tip or Ring) once changing it, then you can assign say CC11 Expression. Start the Maschine Software and load up an instrument that responds to CC11 and it works. Here is what the manual says which is contradictory to the "Comparison" page you posted as it does not automatically detect anything, it has to be set manually in Controller Editor...

    9. PEDAL socket: Allows you to use a footswitch to control the transport in MASCHINE. Note that this is a stereo socket, allowing you to plug in a double footswitch and control the PLAY and the REC buttons in MASCHINE. The PEDAL socket can also be configured to accept continuous pedals (“expression pedals”). For more details, please refer to the MASCHINE Manual available from the Help menu

    I find it funny that in the manual it tells you to refer to the Manual for more info...🤪

    Anyway, I tried changing the pedal jack back to sustain (CC64) (in CE) at which point the sustain pedal only controlled Playback, no sustain. I then tried plugging in the Expression controller and it just controlled record enable. (My exp pedal is configured for ring, so it controls RE)

    So Sustain appears to be out of the question....(in Controller Mode)

  • Mystic38
    Mystic38 Member Posts: 11 Member

    Sadly this is kinda what i expected.. NI has responded like molasses where playability is concerned as the only way for 16 pads to have any use for keyboard parts is with sustain and custom chords, (as otherwise root plus octave chord simply cannot be played).

    anyway, I saw that you had some success with expression, so could you make an experiment by setting the jack for expression pedal but simply assign it to CC64 vs CC11?.. then CC64 n(0-63) would be sustain ON and CC64 n(64-127) would be sustain ON.. effectively having a variable switch ..

    just a thought, thx

  • Blindeddie
    Blindeddie Member Posts: 1,559 Expert

    ok, gave that a test and when you set it to "Continuous" in CE prefs, Mascine appears to convert any CC value that is entered to CC11in Maschine Controller Mode. So setting the CC# to 64 has no effect on sustain. If you switch the controller into Midi mode, it will control sustain but if you just keep the pref setting to switch, and set the CC# to 64, it works as sustain. so here is the deal in a nutshell

    When using Maschine in Controller Mode (controlling Maschine Software)

    If "Switch" set in Control Editor Preferences

    1. Jack Tip - Play
    2. Jack Ring - Rec.

    If "Continuous" set in Control Editor Preferences an Expression pedal can only control Expression (CC 11)

    When Maschine in Midi Mode (sending Midi to Maschine Software)

    The Jack will act just like any KB Sustain/Expression input, but CC#'s can be specifically set in Controller Editor.

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