Kontrol S Series mk3 keyboard long USB-C cable
What are the data transfer speed requirements over USB C for the Kontrol S Series mk3?
I just upgraded from S61 mk2 to S61 mk3. I need to use a long (15 to 20 feet) USB-C cable given the distance and cable routing between my keyboard rig and location of my Mac Studio. That was no problem with the mk2 using USB-A cables for both bus power and data transfer but given mk3 capabilities I presume a higher data transfer speed may be required. I see a number of 15 to 20ft USB C cables stating support of data transfer at various maximum speeds which prompts my question. Also curious whether active USB C cables or USB C fiber optic link cables used for longer distances will work.
For my use and given the longer cable, bus power is not a concern as I do not mind using a USB power adapter connected to a nearby source.
Appreciate any info and insights. Thanks.
Best Answer
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Quote : "I can and may resort to a USB-C to USB-A high quality cable to resove the problem, but I then have to convert the A end back to C, since both receiving ports are in USB-C configuration."
This is a no go ! The USB-C to USB-A cable were solely a suggested fix if you had an available USB-A port on the computer.
If you have only USB-C ports available on the computer then the route that you need to take is using a self-powered USB-C hub with PD as go between keyboard and computer. and then still add the USB-C PSU with PD on the keyboard power port. Remember that cables in the connection chain from keyboard data port to computer must be certified to data connection and what used for the power port on Keyboard must at least be certified for USB power delivery and same goes for the PSU (again choose minimum 20W).
On the subject of Thunderbolt cables then if using that then it must be passive cables !
N.I. and support do care , you can ask N.I. support also if you want (I am just another user here and not an N.I. employee) , and while I don't know all the varying rules for different countries then my guess is that if you got a copy of the original purchase receipt then the keyboard most likely is still under warranty. But you have to check that for yourself !
At this point, to avoid any discussion misinformation I will post the what Matthew_NI stated information ! :
Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:05 PM , 2024-02-19 ,
To be very clear, and to avoid any one opinion becoming misinformation, I'll re-state what has been said in various places:
As frustrating as this is to you, it is also to us.
This issue is specific to the USB-C implementation on certain computer models.
This issue is not specific to the peripherals themselves.
This issue causes the communication in the protocol to essentially break, thus data is dropped.
This manifests as various symptoms, depending on the peripheral. For Kontrol S MK3, the dropped data can interrupt a firmware update, or controller -> DAW and/or controller -> Plug-in sync.
The issue can appear at random, frequently or infrequently.
Using a USB-C hub interrupts and bypasses the problematic communication specific to the chips used in the USB-C implementation of affected machines.
We can highlight and advise on workarounds, should a customer be affected.
We can, and have, reported this directly to the manufacturers of affected models. So have many other manufacturers of peripherals.
They can, and have, fixed it in newer models, but of course there exist affected models in the market that will forever be subject to the workaround.
We cannot do any more than this. I'm sorry that some of you choose to blame us. I recognize that it's deeply frustrating, but I cannot change the facts of the matter that I've outlined above.
Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:06 PM , 2024-02-19 ,
MK3 has two ports:
1) For simultaneously data and power
2) For auxiliary power if the first port is not able to provide adequate power (e.g. a USB-A port)
These are not two separate issues.
Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:11PM , 2024-02-19 ,
This narrative simply isn't factual. I know how frustrating this is - but please recognize that the shortcoming here is specific to the USB-C implementation in certain hardware, and not the peripherals that are affected by the shortcoming.
As I've stated - it is to do with communication protocols in the chip breaking down, which can affect the transfer of whatever's coming down the pipe (USB-C cable).
Also, we are not talking about a lot of cases. We are talking about a small number of cases handled either here in the forum, or via our customer support channels, or both. The number of unaffected customers is exponentially larger.
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Answers
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Questions regarding not published specifications can only be answered by customer service. The N.I. forum representative (Jeremy_NI) is off until 6th of November and the leader of the hardware time is taking time off with his family. So while your post could be spotted by other members of the hardware team roaming the forum sometimes these days then I will still say that you ought to ask customer service if you have some more specific questions regarding cables (normally Jeremy might have tried looking into it !)
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Got it and thanks for the suggestion and heads-up about Jeremy, et al who are likely on a well-deserved break after just after the launch. In the meantime, I'll contact CS, may try a few cable options and will advise of any successes or failures if that info is beneficial to the group.
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While you're waiting for NI to come back from vacation, I did something similar to you, except that I used an extension cable and a passive (not powered) hub (for the reason noted below), plus the NI cable that came with my KK MK3. The cable and hub, wired in the way that I did it, produces the same status lights on a USB-C tester that the NI cable by itself did. I don't know if that's a requirement, but it works for my S61 MK3 and my Windows 11 PC. I'll cross the Windows 10 PC and Mac bridges when I get to them.
Here's the excerpt from that post.
Rather than make you pick through the other thread, here's a little TLDR:
- I wanted like you, 10+ feet from my PC (it's a tower, so can't be moved easily) to my KK's permanent home on the opposite side of my wrap-around desk. It's not really going to be 10 feet away, but the cables can't go as the crow flies...they need to be under the desk and out of the way of my clumsy feet and my clumsy vacuum cleaner, lol!
- The order of the cables may be important. I wanted the hub IN THE MIDDLE of the chain, so that I can plug additional USB devices (including up to 1 additional USB-C device) and have it closer to my KK than to my PC.
- The above cable sequence STILL required ANOTHER usb-c cable and a power supply (I used an old Apple 20W power supply), because the PC was not supplying enough power to the KK through that cable and hub chain.
- The orientation of the CONNECTORS may also be important, because not all USB-C cables (not even extension cables) are made the same way. I bought 3 extension cables, and only one produced the same lights on the tester that the NI cable produces by itself. And the extension STILL needed to be plugged in a certain way (with the label "up") to produce those lights in that order. Flipping the connector the other way on the PC side would have produced a different sequence of lights, which might have worked...or might not have.
The upshot to #4 above is that I didn't waste any time trying any configurations that produced different lights. They might work...I just didn't want to mess around all day trying to find the right combination of cables and connector-directions and then still have to do a rain-dance to get it to work.
I hope that's helpful. That other thread is here:
https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/17560/just-received-the-mk3-s61/p6
Good luck!
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I got my Kontrol S61 MK3 and I am driving it using a 5m USB 3.2 (USB-C) cable without any problems so far.
I had a look using "USB Device Tree Viewer" and it looks like it is just using a USB 2.0 connection for data transfer. The USB-C is therefore just for the higher power consumption, I suppose.
So a USB-A should work fine, as long as power is applied via the dedicated power port.
Hope this helps.
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Many thanks for everyone's insights.
I had success using a Cable Matters 5m/16.4 ft Active USB-C cable (model 201034) with my S61 MK3 connected to an M2 Mac Studio. This works for powering the Mk3 as well although I've chosen to use the dedicated power port anyway. For me it was plug-and-play solution for the required long cable run.
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Thank you for the feedback and great that it all went 'plug and play' for you. I wish that a lot more users here had had that kind of experience with their Kontrol S Series mk3 keyboard 🤔 🙂
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I can also recommend this 5m cable
PHIXERO USB C auf USB C Kabel 100W (20GBPS)
https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/B09YTWX7FD/
It works on the back right port of the Mac Studio M2 without any issues and no need for an additional power suppy (once the keyboard has been firmware update).
Hope this helps.
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I purchased Komplete Control Mk3, but got no cable in the box. Is there nobody, anywhere on this planet that can help me buy a replacement cable? This is idiotic. The unit is useless without it, and NI is nowhere to be found for an effective solution!
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For the S88MK3 you will need both data transfer able cable and an USB-C PSU capable of PD power delivery and a cable PD ready also, while anUSB-C PSU with PD is strongly recommended for all S-Series MK3 keyboard when wanting to update firmware then that especially true with respect to the S88 MK3) .
To complicate matters then a few users have had problems with the USB-C port functionality with respect to some peripherals including the N.I keyboards (there is an official statement but I will not overload you with info) , but the point is that for some it has not worked using an USB-C to USB-C cable as data cable , some have had to use e.g. an USB-C to USB-A computer port cable , other have used a self-powered USB-C hub with PD as go between keyboard and computer.
So a bit hard for me to recommend anything and promise that that will work for sure ! (though at the moment for dta cable I would think that the USB-C to USB-A cable have the greatest chance of working). But if then buy quality cable(s) !
Also if connecting to an USB-A port then it is that more important to be using an USB-C PSU with PD on the keyboard power port since the USB-A type port is certified to deliver less power than the USB-C type port. For PSU with PD then consider a 20W a minimum despite listed keyboard requirement , this especially due to varying degrees of quality of the PSUs
Further more then if you want anybody to at least try to advice what to buy then maybe you ought to tell what part of the world that you live in ?
(I most likely will not be back here before some time Tuesday)
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@conrad caldwell said: "got no cable in the box"
Are you sure about that? There was a post from someone a while ago who claimed there was no cable, but was told "It's in the foam bit on the side" and lo there it was.
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I will check again, but I went through the packing thororughly. I still have it.
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I have already tried using Thunderbolt cables between the MacBook and the SC88, as it allows fast data transfer (in excess of USB-C2 specs), but no dice. I can and may resort to a USB-C to USB-A high quality cable to resove the problem, but I then have to convert the A end back to C, since both receiving ports are in USB-C configuration. It sounds like chasing my own tail, but who knows sometimes things like that work.
I bought my unit still in the box from a fellow who bought it ne, but the box was open and contained no propritary host cable. Frankly finding what NI calls USB-C2 is nearly impossible. No retailer knows or understands the difference, and offer USB 3, and USB 4 as alternates, et (wrong configurations). It is bloody maddening.
I am beginning to suspect NI customer support is a myth. They have been completely unresponsive to numerous emails, and make a point to have no 1-800 service tech assistance in the US. I hope their product is better than their customer service.
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Update: I have now obtained the proprietary cable between computer and controller, but the failure to install the hardware system persists. My only recourse is having NI respond.
Thanks for all the info and recommendations so far.
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The cable connection isn't proprietary. It's physically a USB-C connector that is USB 2.0 compliant.
In addition to the USB data connection, the S88 requires an additional USB-C power connection.
There have been numerous reports of the new keyboards "not working" because of USB issues. These can typically be resolved by adding a USB hub in between your computer and the S88.
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Please checkout Matthew_NI's post in this thread for more info.
https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/131878
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