Komplete Kontrol slow synth load times

anthony-1979
anthony-1979 Member Posts: 23 Sine
edited March 9 in Komplete Kontrol

It pains me to say this but the very thing that's crippling my Komplete Kontrol experience and stopping me from being able to use it effectively is "Native Instruments" products of all things. Yep, unbelievable but true.

Switching preset to preset when searching instrument tags obviously loads different plugins and interfaces in order to provide similar sounds but it takes 10 seconds every time it's trying to load a preset from "massive" or an "absynth" or a "super 8". It's nearly unusable. I don't think it should not take 10 seconds to load a different preset when you're trying to audition many different sounds with the MIDI in your song and it should definitely not take 10 seconds with NI products of all things.

I have absolutely no issue loading sampled content that uses kontakt engine like "cloud supply" or "hybrid keys" or "alicias keys" and that's ironic because sampled content usually takes longer to load into memory etc. NI synths should blaze through loading times without breaking any sweat. I can even load a "Diva" preset in half a second. Every other company's presets that use "synth engines" load almost instantly.

What's going on here and why am I having to disable products from the company that makes this product in order to make Komplete Kontrol actually usable and mimic the behaviour of my old synth romplers like my Triton etc. I'd understand it if it was loading an 80gb patch but even an 80gb patch would load in less than a second with kontakt.

First it was that Komplete Kontrol would take 30 seconds to load as a plugin on a mac and NI fixed this but now it's the internal synth engine products taking forever.

Please help and advise.

Comments

  • Nico_NI
    Nico_NI BerlinAdministrator Posts: 393 admin
    edited March 7

    Do you have more details about your computer specs? And in which context do you use the plugins (DAW, VST1, VST2..).

    I personally find that NI plugins/presets have pretty much the same loading time than others, except with Ashlight or old ones like Thrill, but not surprising for cinematic stuff imo.

  • anthony-1979
    anthony-1979 Member Posts: 23 Sine

    Thanks for your response.

    I am using a 2018 Macbook Pro on Big Sur with 16gb Ram and 2tb SSD. Using inside Studio One 5 and 64bit versions. Computer is no issue as other plugin companies plugins fly when opening them and closing them. Diva takes half a second when instantiating any preset that is within it. Massive, Absynth, FM8, Reaktor all 10 seconds to flick between presets contained within them if plugin switching needs to occur.

    Upon doing other research it seems that some have posted that it's due to a license check upon loading the NI synths. Needs to do some checks before loading which is where the time goes. However, having an instance of each NI plugin silently loaded in the session (not as KK but as basic VST) seems to make using KK fly during preset surfing and it's super fast. It's the fact that every single time I load a massive preset, it has to load the plugin from scratch and then when you change preset, it closes the massive fully before loading the next plugin containing the preset.

    This proves that it's a one-time load issue. Having it loaded in the session one time makes subsequent loads instantaneous. I shouldn't have to do this pre-emptive work and have some plugins loaded in the session in order to get KK to work as intended. Apparently PC isn't experiencing this issue either. It seems Mac is notorious for slow load times.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 661 Saw

    And have you tried it in another DAW? It may be DAW specific behaviour....

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Custom NKS Libraries: freelancesoundlabs.com/nksMember Posts: 386 Saw

    When you have an issue like this, first thing is take a step back and check if many others have the same issue as you. I do not see the boards full of this problem so it suggests to me anyway, your issue is not common and more a local issue, therefore probably not the software specifically.

    Have you simply tried using KK standalone and tested switching presets from a single plugin (like Massive) a few times and note if the issue is the same? Document the actual time it takes so someone else can test the same thing as you.

    I have zero issues like you have on both mac and PC, yes when you load a preset from a different instrument than the previous it takes longer (and may take a little longer than loading it up from scratch as I assume it needs to flush memory first) but switching presets for the same plugin is always as I expect, and the same as using the plugin itself.

    Could just place the blame on macOS, seems things these days are just flaky all round these days.

  • anthony-1979
    anthony-1979 Member Posts: 23 Sine

    It is quick when loading from within the plugin and switching through presets. That's expected. I am finding that when it needs to unload and reload numerous plugins it takes unacceptable time to do so unless I have all those plugins loaded already within the daw as regular VST's. Maybe I'm acting spoiled as I kinda expected the same level of preset switching speed that you get on dedicated synth/rompler devices of yesteryear but yeah I guess it's expected to take longer if it's switching between plugins and I understand that as they need to load/unload. I just honestly feel they could be faster - much faster. It's just hard to keep in a state of flow when you're watching and waiting for products to load and unload that are NI based while Diva and the rest fly when unloading and reloading the next product.

    I feel there could be a more clever way to instantiate plugins within the environment than a raw loading/unloading of the plugin each time you change a preset.

    I just wish NI products could load as fast for me (especially basic synths like Absynth) as other plugins do like Diva, Omnisphere and other heavier synths that load in an instant. The fact these other plugins are blazing through load times and presets are instantiated in split seconds has caused me to make favorites only out of every single NKS pack that is not a Native Instruments product. Seems counterintuitive considering the product is NI and it should be faster if anything. That doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't lead me to believe that there is a problem with my computer or setup. My reason? Read below:

    Sorry to say but NI has a reputation for many to sometimes take excruciating amounts of time to load simple plugins. My KK used to take 30 seoconds on my mac and many many others complained about minute-long load times in the past. This was an issue on mac until about 6 months ago where an update magically appeared for KK and fixed it to take 3 seconds to load as it should. But it took over half a decade for it to be fixed.

    This ones about the KK taking extremely long to load and has now been rectified literally overnight after years and years of taking an eternity to load:

    https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/komplete-kontrol-plugin-very-slow-to-load.332431/page-6

    this ones about generally long load times:

    Another about a proposed fix for people waiting ages for load times:

    http://forum.cakewalk.com/Handy-fix-for-anyone-experiencing-huge-load-times-for-NativeInstruments-Massive-or-FM8-m3259872.aspx

    A simple google search of "NI + something to the effect of "slow load times" or just "slow" yields results that are too many to count. So saying that this isn't something that is prevalent in user forums sorta rings totally incorrect and if anything it seems like a problem exclusive to NI as I found it difficult to return results for most other plugin manufacturers that had keywords about them loading slowly etc. With NI it seems notorious.

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Custom NKS Libraries: freelancesoundlabs.com/nksMember Posts: 386 Saw

    It's just hard to keep in a state of flow when you're watching and waiting for products to load and unload that are NI based while Diva and the rest fly when unloading and reloading the next product.

    just be thankful you are producing now and not in 2001 when everything ran on mechanical drives and things were a lot more limited!

    A google of anything will produce results so first thing would be where are the similar results or complaints of "slow loading times" on the current forums... Maybe it is more a macOS issue because I mostly use PC by choice DUE to to many problems I have with macOS for various reasons.

    If you feel it is an issue then open a ticket and submit some data.

  • anthony-1979
    anthony-1979 Member Posts: 23 Sine

    Thanks for your wisdom. I've been producing music since the Cubasis days back around 1994. I've been part of the forever changing landscape of music and the very thing I'm passionate about right here points very much to the days of the Korg Triton and other Romplers that were instantaneous and allowed you to get your instruments down at blazing speeds. I'm thankful that I'm still producing music in 2022 but there's something left to be desired when it comes to "workflow". Too many choices, options and a million different plugins to get you there these days. It's all too overwhelming to know which one to use and hence why I purchased KK. It is supposed to operate as far as I understand just like a Rompler from 1998. It's meant to be quick to load preset after preset so that way you can stay in the state of flow. And this is the case with every other manufacturer other than NI in my experience.

    So for this point, I'm thankful that I was making music during an era where it was possible to skip through sounds at lightning speeds and lay them down as they came. Things were simpler and actually faster back then. These days, you're crippled with choices and so you buy a KK thinking it's going to unify everything and it totally does but then all of a sudden it's not entirely working acceptably fast enough and the flow slows you down rather than keeps you working fast.

    Here's to hoping someone can chime in with a potential 2022 fix or that NI sees this and acknowledges the points. I don't think it's a support ticket situation for now.

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Custom NKS Libraries: freelancesoundlabs.com/nksMember Posts: 386 Saw

    It is supposed to operate as far as I understand just like a Rompler from 1998

    No, it is not. Nothing suggests this is what the design aim was for. It is a sound browser, yes, but a "Rompler" such as a Triton uses very small sample sets of a few MB in total so loading that compared to a multi-gigabyte instrument is very different. Romplers as the name suggest use ROM memory so as far as I understand, the cart that the sounds comes on is used to directly stream the sound material so not even a need to load in memory.

    Things haven't necessarily gotten more complicated, there is more to choose from but it's really up to the individual to make their own limits.

    If I switch between instruments, even on PC, it can sometimes take 20+ seconds depending on the instrument. Omnisphere takes ages these days but it's part of how physics and the universe work.... when you have a lot of data/stuff to move from one place to another it takes some actual time to do the work.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 661 Saw

    Anthony, have you tried different DAW? Or KK standalone? To sort out problem in KK and your DAW interaction...

    Also, can you give precise data, so that others may check it on their systems. DAW, version, KK, version, list of plugin, patch and loading times.

    If there is a problem, the best way is to open Ticket....

  • anthony-1979
    anthony-1979 Member Posts: 23 Sine

    Same in Cubase, Logic and Ableton. Also the same in standalone

    Here's a video demonstrating the long load times and how it makes it impossible to stay in a flow of hearing and auditioning sounds quickly. Notice how at the end of the video I go back to a diva and this time diva takes longer to load. This is because the NI plugin before also struggles to let go when unloading. Moving between 3rd party plugins is fast and fine. You also can't see in the video but I've clicked on the preset instantly. On my end there's a spinning beachball but on the video there's nothing but a cursor:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQv678d8AD8&ab_channel=anthonye

    Studio One 5. Latest KK software. Also noteworthy is that these NI plugins take long time to load also outside of KK when you're loading regular VST versions.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 661 Saw

    OK, it is about 5 seconds, not 10. ;-) Battery took longer than 5.

    And Diva takes also about 5s, when loaded after NI plugin. And, no, you cannot explain it, that NI has took most of this time while unloading.

    Few seconds seems to me acceptable. But what is acceptable and what not is pretty personal.

    If you think there is a bug, the best is to open the Ticket. NI might look at it. They are converting plugins to Apple Silicon, so it might be good time to focus on this. If there is a field for improvement....

  • anthony-1979
    anthony-1979 Member Posts: 23 Sine
    edited March 8

    Yes I can explain it like that lol because without instantiating any NI plugins, the 3rd party ones keep loading in a split second. It's only until an NI one is instantiated that a subsequent single 3rd party one takes the same length as it took to load the NI one. After that, if I steer clear of NI stuff, i'm loading presets in a split second which is what the desired operation is for "rompling" through sounds. The first Diva loaded in the video is how quick Diva always loads if it isn't being loaded after a NI plugin. It wasn't shown in the video but continuing after Diva would have set KK back on track to loading presets super fast. It's just annoying that I can't do the same with the plugins made by the same company that made KK lol ;)

    And let's be serious, 5 seconds is totally not acceptable when rompling through sounds. It defeats the purpose of KK if you need to stick within a single loaded plugin to continue to get lighting fast load times. Especially that KK displays tags that refer to a broad selection of different plugins. Not even gonna bother believing my drum sounds are even available at that 10sec loading point.

    Thanks for your input and for helping this thread get some traffic. I hope NI sees this and considers that "maybe" their plugins simply take too long to load compared to other manufacturers.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 661 Saw

    The best way is to open the Support Ticket, not writting to forum. ;-) Have you done it?

  • anthony-1979
    anthony-1979 Member Posts: 23 Sine

    I have now. I'll see what they come back with. I was really hoping there'd be someone come on here and say "delete this pref file and rescan this and......" for a fix ;)

    Thanks for at least responding and advising.

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Custom NKS Libraries: freelancesoundlabs.com/nksMember Posts: 386 Saw

    5 seconds you are waiting and this is the end of the earth as we know it…. Speechless!

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