Maschine plus upgrades (ableton push 3 released)

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  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,147 Expert

    OK, but noone could test Intel's big.little. tiny CPU architecture.... What I meant is, that upgrading HW may need also updating SW.

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,680 mod
    edited May 2023

    For sure, it should be way more manageable on Linux than on Windows/Mac from the point of view of the user, the company should be prepared for it.

    If your standalone upgrades the OS or it's libraries you might not even know about it (or care) while upgrading say from Windows 10/7 to 11 requires the user to knowingly commit. The whole point of the industry (AMD, Intel, Apple, and ARM) to be moving towards big.LITTLE is mainly for power/thermal efficiency in mobile devices... exactly what a standalone needs, no? I could be interpreting this wrongly tho

  • OhulahanBass
    OhulahanBass Member Posts: 219 Pro

    Linnstrument built into a standalone is next level. I don’t think I’m sold enough to drop $2.5k on Push + standard but maybe if they include Live standard for the $2k price and add an arranger I would consider it.

    it’s not exactly that I don’t think it is worth it, it’s just the money plus the effort of learning a new paradigm when I’m pretty busy ATM.

  • djadidai
    djadidai Member Posts: 570 Pro

    what’s up with the mpc one+ then? How is it different from the previous one?

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,680 mod
    edited May 2023

    Wireless connectivity, bigger internal storage, ethernet port removed and... it's red.

    In a few more years an MPC One+ 2 comes out, this time they increase Ram and it's green colored or something, In the meantime if you want the best of that particular class you bought 3 of them and who knows if the 1st one will still handle the new instruments designed with the recent ones more in mind.

    This is why upgradeable is better, just like in computers... It's funny everyone agrees that on a computer being able to add/change an internal SSD, CPU or Ram is great but apparently on a standalone music device it's a debate. 🤷‍♂️

  • Flexi
    Flexi Member Posts: 422 Guru

    Yeah you bought three of them, and they still cost less than one Push 3, and wait, you sold 2 of them and got a bunch of money back towards the third.

    "It's funny everyone agrees that on a computer being able to add/change an internal SSD, CPU or Ram is great" the most popular computers for audio right now? go on, go onnnnn, yep macbooks, no SSD/CPU/RAM upgrades, creating a point to fit a narrative can always be done, the fact remains, PUSH 3 is too expensive for what it is.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,147 Expert
    edited May 2023

    The whole point of the industry (AMD, Intel, Apple, and ARM) to be moving towards big.LITTLE is mainly for power/thermal efficiency in mobile devices... exactly what a standalone needs, no? I could be interpreting this wrongly tho

    That applies to devices that have few demanding threads and many nonintensive.... And that often run idle....

    IMHO, it is not case of music production. It needs the both solid single core and multicore performance... IMHO current Intels are not very suitable for music production.... Unless DAW is optimised for those CPUs. It cannot be left just on OS....

    AMD will introduce big.little in next generation of CPUs. But their little will be either the same big core with less cache, or one generation older big core with less cache. And their "little" cores will maybe run on lower clock....

    So, generally AMD's "little" is in fact quite big. There will not be much difference in performance and no difference in instruction set, like in case of Intel.

  • PK The DJ
    PK The DJ Member Posts: 2,561 Expert

    Flexi said:

    PUSH 3 is too expensive for what it is

    So are MacBooks 😂

  • OhulahanBass
    OhulahanBass Member Posts: 219 Pro

    I’ve actually saved money switching to MacBooks but would spend more if I had to just for reliability and less headaches. IMHO Mac is worth every cent, Microsoft isn’t as good but still rad with the touch stuff, Dell should go to jail for fraud as they keep selling door stops as computers.

  • PK The DJ
    PK The DJ Member Posts: 2,561 Expert

    OhulahanBass said:

    they keep selling door stops as computers

    My doorstop works flawlessly streaming 3 hour sets twice a week, running music, visuals and effects on DJ software, VJ software, two cameras and two controllers.

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,680 mod
    edited May 2023

    Bro I really don't wanna argue with you... I agree the price is insane, I've said that 10 times, I was focusing on something else other than Ableton's specific current pricing. I kind of feel like even when we agree you kind of try to fish out an argument for no reason...

    Oh.. Fair point, I guess I was thinking in terms of the efficiency cores handling background services which might increase over time as standalones of this class became more complicated, or when you simply run projects not that demanding so the lower power ones can be used and you have less heat / power consumption to deal with, longer battery life and whatnot... Not even sure is this is an accurate assessment tho.

    I'm happy too as far as laptops, switch every 8 years or so, my M1 was 900$ and I think it's a fair price. On the desktop side I prefer PC tho, I hackintosh exactly because I want to upgrade my main computer. I love what Framework is doing for example.

    PC laptops have an insane variety of build quality, longevity, etc, even the same brand might have a great model than a another riddled with problems, so it's pretty hard to compare with MacBook.

  • OhulahanBass
    OhulahanBass Member Posts: 219 Pro

    Ha, should have known this might lead to a derail. Im glad you have found a workhorse in a Dell, not my experience but I haven't touched them in a long while after receiving a pair of $3.5k bricks.

    I think it is rad that Push offers upgrades, the cost and hassle of learning new paradigm doesn't make sense for me atm but I am curious where this goes. I use the heck out of my Maschine pads, I wonder how 2 extra dimensions of movement will wear out the product...perhaps users will be keeping the computer parts and swiping the interface on occasion.

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,325 Guru
    edited May 2023

    The evolution of heat/power/battery and other such things will piggy back with zero effort needed by NI if they let an integrated iPad be the brains and display of a "standalone" device.

    Why reinvent the wheel? Especially if you can't honestly compete with the existing "wheel"?

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,147 Expert

    @D-One

    Oh.. Fair point, I guess I was thinking in terms of the efficiency cores handling background services which might increase over time as standalones of this class became more complicated, or when you simply run projects not that demanding so the lower power ones can be used and you have less heat / power consumption to deal with, longer battery life and whatnot... Not even sure is this is an accurate assessment tho.

    Well, it is not accurate.... The same may be achieved lowering CPU clock. The thing is that it is way cheaper/easier to produce many small, weak cores and few big and strong ones.

    For example Intel's efficiency cores are less power efficient than Intel's big cores. They make less work for the same amount of energy.... But it looks better in specsheet that their CPU has plentyfull cores.

    Those current Intel's 'Frankenstein's creatures' may not enter my door. Last acceptable is 11th gen. I avoid 12-15th gen, so far. If they will go on, even more gens.

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Member Posts: 3,205 Expert

    D-One Said:

    PC laptops have an insane variety of build quality, longevity, etc, even the same brand might have a great model than a another riddled with problems, so it's pretty hard to compare with MacBook.

    Yep, Agree. I (personally) feel Apple computers are rather pricey when comparing raw CPU/Ram/Storage/connectivity to a PC but I still use both and would recommend to someone who needs portability/reliability to consider a macBook for this reason. If they needed the most flexibility and power for desktop usage i'd suggest using a custom built PC and Win11.

    I upgrade my main system about every 6-8 years but I repurpose the previous ones for my kids with the oldest machine still running on an i7 920 which I built in 2008 and runs everything my kids want to run no problem. You just don't get that kind of longevity (or gaming ability) from any mac especially when it comes to running the latest version of anything. I also convert old hardware into things like jukeboxes, mame/v-pinball machines, media centres.

    Most people aren't that invested nor have any interest for any of that, just want reliable and capable processing power and TBH, a macbook does have (IMO) a more stable and reliable experience out of the box when it comes to runnig productivity stuff and people are willing to pay a little more for that.

    Push 3 is no different. It will appeal to some that see its potential now (and for the future) while others will be stuck comparing cost to the technical specs and see no benefit to them. Can't really understand when people want to argue it like everyone should agree.

    Kind of like arguing/comparing the cost of ones choice of car. Why would someone even consider spending $50k on a 2 door sports car when a 4WD has far more capabilities and flexibility for way less money and can offer more fun and adventure. In fact why would anyone spend that kind of money on any car when you could just get a motorbike which costs almost nothing to run and is even more fun to ride.

    Can't make a "standalone" product if the user then has to go and invest in an iPad for it to function. If Apple were to actually open up the ipad hardware and allow it to be licensed for dedicated purpose (will never happen) then you may have a point. Not everyone wants an iPad no matter how capable a wheel it makes.

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