Scales for India Discovery Series

Blissmusic
Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine
edited February 2022 in Kontakt

India Series

Scales for Indian Music

I have gone through the India Series User Manual (PDF) several times, and also tried things with India Series on Kontakt Player. I am not sure I am understanding the paradigm and how to get certain basic thing accomplished.


First a Few Questions: All Pages ref to India Series Manual

https://www.native-instruments.com/fileadmin/ni_media/downloads/manuals/spotlight_collection/India_Manual_English_29_06_2021.pdf

a) Customizing Scales Page 27

For clarity I will spell out the context

Instrument: Bansuri

Tuning: Scale Tuning

4-South Indian scales 2 -> Shubhapaanthuvarali

Root C


In the scale editor, when you select, say the tab II, you can see in the drop down

Db, D and D#

i) Can you specify the Ornament and Cents Adjustment for each of these? OR

ii) Or you are forcing ONLY one into the scale? and specifying the ornament and cents adjust for that?

I am afraid that the answer is probably (ii) 


Anyone who knows Shubha Panthuvarali knows that all the three notes are used in the raga, with "D" not a Note that can be Rested On.

b) Such things occur in many Indian Ragas - I will leave that out here for now. 

c) So What I really need is an ability to select Equal Tuning and specify adjustments to all the 

12 notes (not just for 8 of them). If I select CHROMATIC as the base, this whole Customizing Scales is disabled :-(

d) The following table provides the lower and high ends for each of the notes in terms of cents relative to equal temperament.

C S   0

C# R1 90-112 cents

D R2, G1 182-204

D# G2, R3 294-316

E G3 386-408

F M1 498-520

F# M2 590-610

G P 702

A# D1 792-814

A D2, N1 884-906

B# N2, D3 996-1018

B N3 1088-1110


Thus C# adjustment in cents can be in the range 

of -10 and +12 depending on the raga.

A good default adjusted scale that can be used for many ragas is

0, 10, 4, -6, 8, -2, 10, 2, -8, 6, -4, 10 

d) How do I create/assign these pitch corrections in Kontakt/India? and play the keyboard in just GUIDE mode? 

e) I thought may be I could create a new .nka file?

Found that these are plain editable text files. Nice.

Fyi, Here is the content of

".... \NI\India\Library Data\Scales\4 - South Indian Scales 2\45 Shubhapantuvarali.nka"

---- ignore this line ---------

%single_scale_preset

0

0

1

1

0

0

2

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

------------- ignore this line -----


How do I interpret the contents of this file? 

So I could create my own default scale files?


I look forward to hearing from folks, who are familiar with these mechanisms.

Thanks Sri.

P.S. I had raised these for discussion, ~3 years ago, but those threads have sort of disappeared. And my NI/Discovery Series set still remains unused so far, due to this and many such other issues. 

I also want to point out one other major issue -- Pitch bend range is limited to plus/minus 2 on the UI? Rather strange.. Does this also apply to MIDI inputs? Is there a menu for setting the Pitch Bend Range?


 

Best Answer

  • Nicki_NI
    Nicki_NI Product Team Posts: 6 mod
    Answer ✓

    Hello,

    first of all thanks for reaching out, all questions and remarks are really useful and make sense.

    In regards to "Spotlight Collection: India" and "Spotlight Collection: Middle East", it's currently only possible to tune notes that are part of the scale.

    But maybe you've had a chance to have a look at the scale and tuning editor for "Spotlight Collection: East Asia", the tuning possibilities are greatly enhanced (including everything you've described).

    We will at some point update "India" and "Middle East" to this new framework, so please bear with us in the meantime. There'll also be more specific features for Hindustani and Carnatic Music in regards to the scale framework, like aroha/avaroha implementation, support for Janya ragas and much more (plus an editable pitch bend range of course).

«1

Answers

  • Blissmusic
    Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine

    How do I enter Discovery Spot Light India Custom Scaling etc. as Tags to the topic?

  • EvilDragon
    EvilDragon CroatiaModerator Posts: 812 mod
    edited February 2022

    Regarding pitch bend range, you can edit it yourself. For example, open Bansuri.nki, then click the wrench button to enter the edit mode. Make sure you have the two Bansuri groups selected, and then you will see:

  • Blissmusic
    Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine
    edited February 2022

    EvilDragon

    Thanks for the note with the screen shot.

    I have only Kontakt Player -- How do I get this UI for editing it.

    In this context, I also see a KSP button in the India Series instruments - which I assume is Kontakt Script. Can I edit/save/create/execute KSPs with the Kontakt Player?

    Thanks in advance

    blissmusic.

  • Murat Kayi
    Murat Kayi DortmundMember Posts: 261 Saw

    I think you need the full version of Kontakt to be able to edit instruments. Hence the name "player" for the basic version. It just plays the instrument

  • Blissmusic
    Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine

    EvilDragon, Murat others

    I was aware that Kontakt Player cannot be used to create/modify instruments -- the reason I said the "obvious" answer. KSP script was a side question.

    Can you folks answer the rest of the questions.

    They are basic and absolutely critical configuration issues for Indian Music. They are not creating or midifying instruments.

    Adjusting Pitches for all the 12 notes. creating custom scales with Arahonams, Avarohanams, Setting Pitch Bends, Control Portamento, Getting 2.5 octave ranges, basic Taals like Adi, Rupak, Teen Taal, Kaherva Taal.

    Appreciate your (especially the staff/developers) diligence to these.

    blissmusic.

  • Murat Kayi
    Murat Kayi DortmundMember Posts: 261 Saw

    Hi,

    I like to listen to indian traditional music (Debashish Battacharya and also ragas played with Bansuri in general). But unfortunately I am really no expert in indian music and will just follow this discussion with utmost interest, just because I would like to apply a bit of new knowledge to when I make use of the "India" instruments. As concerns changing the scales and temperament, this would also be interesting to know, in general, as it might apply to the Middle East collection, also.

    So, sorry: interested, but can't help atm

  • Blissmusic
    Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine

    NI Staff /Developers, Murat

    Murat

    Thanks for your candid and kind answer. You can ask me any questions you may have on Indian Music and I may be able to answer them. I did buy the full discovery series and that includes Middle Eastern Instrument as well. I may draw on you for the latter.

    NI Staff, Developers,

    Consider the following MAJOR foundational ragas of the South and North Indian Music, they use lot more (10-12) notes in the scale.

    Thodi (South)

    Shubha Panthuvarali (South), Thodi (North)

    Sindhu Bhairavi (South) or Bhairavi (North)

    Pahadi (North) all notes

    Anandha Bhairavi, Kaapi, Varaali (South)

    All of these also require significant pitch bending and long glides for various Gamakas/Ornamentations.

    Support for full 2.5-3 octaves in the instruments are also essential.

    I am sorry to say this, but I am beginning to feel quite troubled that Native Instruments might have paraded India Series with so much publicity, while having some fundamental issues in its foundations. People who are not familiar with Indian Music may not be able to see these issues, but others who are familiar, and intend to use them to create/play Indian Music, will run into and get stalled fast.

    I am still looking for NI Developers, Staff to delve on and address these basic questions and/or provide some workarounds to get going.

    Ideally they should consider distributing an Update, or, even a "special" version of Kontakt (may be bound to only Discovery Series for editing/updating) to overcome these issues, especially if there are no other simple ways to resolve them.

    blissmusic.

  • Nicki_NI
    Nicki_NI Product Team Posts: 6 mod
    Answer ✓

    Hello,

    first of all thanks for reaching out, all questions and remarks are really useful and make sense.

    In regards to "Spotlight Collection: India" and "Spotlight Collection: Middle East", it's currently only possible to tune notes that are part of the scale.

    But maybe you've had a chance to have a look at the scale and tuning editor for "Spotlight Collection: East Asia", the tuning possibilities are greatly enhanced (including everything you've described).

    We will at some point update "India" and "Middle East" to this new framework, so please bear with us in the meantime. There'll also be more specific features for Hindustani and Carnatic Music in regards to the scale framework, like aroha/avaroha implementation, support for Janya ragas and much more (plus an editable pitch bend range of course).

  • Blissmusic
    Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine

    Nicki

    Thanks for joining here and your encouraging words and comments.

    I can now instantly recall the exchanges I had with you ~3 years ago.

    I am happy to read about the possible updates coming to India Discovery Series, possibly for all of them - sooner the better.

    I will certainly take a look at the East Asia -- though I am not sure I purchased it - unless it was part of the full set.

    Count me in for testing any interim work-in-process patch/update. I would also be happy to share/exchange any additional thoughts, as you formulate your requirements/framework enhancements.

    regards

    blissmusic

  • Blissmusic
    Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine

    Nicki

    A few related quick question(s)..

    What is the default pitches for Chromatic? and Keyboard in Guide Setting.

    So I can play all the notes.

    Similarly when I pick a Raga (say, Shankarabharanam), what are the pitches for the Notes that are not in the scale. Again I would be using Guide Mode setting for the keyboard.

    If you allowed Pythagorean Tuning for the Whole Keyboard, hopefully easy to do, it would keep things going for Indian Music, while customizing scales can come later.

    Meanwhile what is JUST Tuning which is currently available? Can you provide the Adjustment in Cents to Equal Tuning. Does it work with Scale->Chromatic? In the edit/customize panel, I am able to select Tuning->Just Tuning, but not sure what it does and whether it is operating. As rest of the panel, all the Roman Tabs are disabled.

    regards blissmusic.

  • Blissmusic
    Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine

    Another set of basic questions:

    I used 61-key Korg PA600 Keyboard.

    C1 is the first key. And split point is set at C2.

    C1 keys are used for accompaniments -- drone and styles.

    C2-C6 are playing area. I also transpose keys, so that root is always C3.

    I generally do not use C5-C6 area as they are too high pitched. I use C2 area quite heavily for the low-warm notes.

    My question is:

    How do I remap/transpose the keyboard keys in Kontakt?

    So I can have the articulations and playing areas of the Online Keyboard, to suit my needs? Articulation area is especially in C1-B1 area - in conflict with normal usage in most keyboards.

    regards blissmusic

  • EvilDragon
    EvilDragon CroatiaModerator Posts: 812 mod

    You can use the Transpose multiscript that comes with Kontakt, but this won't change how things are colored on the virtual keyboard. This would require each instrument's script to be updated.

  • Blissmusic
    Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine

    EvilDragon

    thanks for your tip. But I would assume I cannot do this with just Kontakt Player and/or Discovery Series. If it can be done, it would be great.. and appreciate some more handwave for editing the Transpose Multiscript.

    blissmusic

  • EvilDragon
    EvilDragon CroatiaModerator Posts: 812 mod

    You should be able to use that factory multiscript in Kontakt Player, IIRC. That's the KSP button in top right. You don't need to edit it. However yes, you cannot edit the instrument itself in Kontakt Player as far as I know.

  • Blissmusic
    Blissmusic Nashua, New Hampshire, U.S.AMember Posts: 16 Sine

    Evildragon

    Thanks for prompt reply. I am a bit confused.

    What is IIRC?

    What is using that Factory Multiscript in Kontakt Player? Appreciate a bit more of what the process is.

    regards blissmusic.

Back To Top