Help Understanding Expansions
Ahoy Mateys!
Hopefully most of you had a seamless Maschine 3 SW integration. Those that chose to upgrade that is.
And to those less fortunate, be patient. I've had some lackluster experiences with NI in the past but they have ALWAYS worked to resolve any issue I've encountered, albeit, not always as quickly as I'd have liked…
That said, on to my current conundrum. And there may already be a discussion thread on this elsewhere, but with the launch of the new software version, perhaps revisiting the topic seems appropriate.
Are Maschine Expansions Gain Staged/Mixed?
- On the Pad Level, and this is for many of the expansions, when I open up the Mixer View and check the volume levels, some pads are set very low, almost inaudibly so. I can't imagine this being intentional so, I'm wondering if this is a potential bug or installation error..? Or, maybe I've inadvertently done something wrong?
Some Pads Do Not Seem Set To Appropriate Audio/Sampler Engine
- Again, on the Pad Level, I've noticed that some pads on some of the kits do not trigger any sound upon initially loading the kit, however, upon changing the Audio/Sampler Engine on these pads, they trigger 'normally'. I say 'normally' because I'm not the kit designer so, since the pad didn't trigger a sound when initially loaded, I can only assume my adjustment provides the intended audio output. This also seems unintentional. My assumption is that these expansions are, in fact, tested prior to being packaged and sold so, again, perhaps a potential bug, installation error or inadvertent operator error on my behalf???
These are the two main experiences with Maschine Expansions that leave me scratching my head. Some of the mixer levels are so terrible, it begs the question whether the QC department fell asleep on the job. It's a hot take I know, and not my honest opinion, but it's either that, a bug or installation error, or an inadvertent goof on my part.
Any insight and I'd be grateful. Also, once I make the adjustments, is it safe to save over the default expansion settings? I've never thought to do that until literally JUST NOW… or would I need to save a copy of the kit elsewhere on my HD?
Best Answers
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Hi Dios,
first off, Maschine Expansions are a collection of Samples&Loops, Drum Kits and Synth Presets.
They also come with some premade Kits and even Projects.
Within these Kits and Projects you have the possibility to just load the Kit - Kit with Routing - Kit with Pattern or both routing AND pattern.
Most of these premade Kits are premixed, because of the demo-pattern you can load them with.
On project level, depending on the project, some are made with groups (drum, bassline, synth, vocal …) some others are just a collection of kits where only parts of the sounds within one kit is used.
Both, kits and projects are just something to get you jamming with or see and learn how some things are done in Maschine. They are not to be seen as "ready to go on stage and perform live".
They are only an inspiration for you to get started building your own kits and projects.
Hope this explains a bit.1 -
I wouldn't say Expansions are 'broken' but they do have many, many issues.
I don't think the sound design team reads the forum or if they are even open to suggestions of improvements.
Dont do that, it ends up just a duplicate. If a thread doesn't get traction just bump it. I merged both and changed it to a question. Ussually all threads get replies, but the past few days with the 3.0 related threads theres much more activity that other topics can get buried down.
I can't be sure but to me it looks like someone defined guidelines a long, loooong time ago, like for example for the Group/Kit Inserts that are often unused but are still there, these guidelines are just blindly followed and were never tweaked. Often theres loops in a Sampler with polyphony or no choke, a Sampler with a two hihat oneshot (that will be offbeat if BPM is not the intended), etc…
QC is definitively terrible, often it feels like Group Kits aren't made by people that use Maschine.
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Answers
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After messing around with some of the Expansions in the new Maschine 3 update, I've observed that several kits have pads that are setup to trigger sampled chops and require being in Keyboard Mode to play properly.
I've also noticed that some of THESE pads setup this way will also require an observation as to the Root Note of the sample so that once in Keyboard Mode, the appropriate Octave can be set in order for proper sample chop playback.
A great example of this can be found in the Amplified Funk Expansion - Boog Kit - Sound 14. If you load up this kit in Maschine 3 SW with a Micro MK3 and ensure Pad 14 is Selected as the Focused Pad, switch to keyboard mode and…nothing. The sample won't trigger in the default load up of this Expansion kit. You need to Octave down to root note C-2 in order for proper playback of the chops.
This is all well and good for someone like me with over a decade of experience in the Maschine environment, however, it seems quite a stretch and a vicious learning curve for someone brand new to the NI universe and the Maschine world specifically.
I would venture to say that some folks would even consider this Expansion broken especially if they expect to hit a pad and get a sound response.
So I'm not sure what is going on with some of the default load ups of these expansion kits. Again, maybe I'm inadvertently doing something or have a setting set a certain way that I'm not aware of but, if not, and without being too assertive with my opinions, my expectation as an end user would be at least some basic insight as to how these kits function. Specifically, if any of the Samples in the Kits require additional setup before proper playback, like from the example given above.
I've seen no literature concerning Expansion Kit pad setup/settings for proper playback of samples. Oddly enough, no videos either. It seems like some of the kits just get overlooked before shipping??? I'm honestly not trying to throw shade on the Quality Control Dept. Just trying to take everything into consideration.
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I had hoped this discussion would get more traction:
Now I repost as a question.
Cheers!
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Hi Dios,
first off, Maschine Expansions are a collection of Samples&Loops, Drum Kits and Synth Presets.
They also come with some premade Kits and even Projects.
Within these Kits and Projects you have the possibility to just load the Kit - Kit with Routing - Kit with Pattern or both routing AND pattern.
Most of these premade Kits are premixed, because of the demo-pattern you can load them with.
On project level, depending on the project, some are made with groups (drum, bassline, synth, vocal …) some others are just a collection of kits where only parts of the sounds within one kit is used.
Both, kits and projects are just something to get you jamming with or see and learn how some things are done in Maschine. They are not to be seen as "ready to go on stage and perform live".
They are only an inspiration for you to get started building your own kits and projects.
Hope this explains a bit.1 -
I dont have any facts, but have noticed there are some strange things regarding expansions.. Like, gainstaging can be a bit all over the place (usually a bit to loud to begin with, but its not consistent), groups/sounds can have a bunch of plugins on them for seemingly no reason whatsoever, velocity mapping on multisampled sounds might be incorrectly configured, small things like that.. Almost gives off the feeling that there isnt a lot of QC in the expansion production chain, or the sound designers are a bit stoned when they work, stuff like that.. ;)
I wouldn't invest too much money on the expansions myself.. I'd advise only to buy them during sales such as "9 for 99" and so on
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Yessir! I had a feeling these were not performance ready kits and without any 'official' documentation from NI, we're kinda left to our own devices.
Thanks for the insight.
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Are Maschine Expansions Gain Staged/Mixed?
Gain staged: Yes or No, people have very different concepts of what gain staging means.
Mixed: Yes, according to the taste of the person/team who made the expansion, which might not match yours or mine.
One thing to note is that NI Expasions Group/Kits use the same tricks a lot of other "Sample Packs" designers use, maximizers or limiters to make them sound super loud/clipped to make you go: "wow such power" heheh
Some Pads Do Not Seem Set To Appropriate Audio/Sampler Engine
I've noticed that some pads on some of the kits do not trigger any sound upon initially loading the kit, however, upon changing the Audio/Sampler Engine on these pads, they trigger 'normally'.
Give an example regarding "Pads not triggering", i never had this experience with any Expansion.
A great example of this can be found in the Amplified Funk Expansion - Boog Kit - Sound 14. If you load up this kit in Maschine 3 SW with a Micro MK3 and ensure Pad 14 is Selected as the Focused Pad, switch to keyboard mode and…nothing. The sample won't trigger in the default load up of this Expansion kit. You need to Octave down to root note C-2 in order for proper playback of the chops.
Strange... I looked at it and it's just a 2-bar Guitar loop in a Sampler, meant to be triggered via the Maschine Pads, it works fine that way here, not sure why one would want to use Keyboard Mode on a Guitar Loop. Indeed the base-key (of all guitar loops) is set to C-2 instead of being the regular C3, no ideia why.
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I wouldn't say Expansions are 'broken' but they do have many, many issues.
I don't think the sound design team reads the forum or if they are even open to suggestions of improvements.
Dont do that, it ends up just a duplicate. If a thread doesn't get traction just bump it. I merged both and changed it to a question. Ussually all threads get replies, but the past few days with the 3.0 related threads theres much more activity that other topics can get buried down.
I can't be sure but to me it looks like someone defined guidelines a long, loooong time ago, like for example for the Group/Kit Inserts that are often unused but are still there, these guidelines are just blindly followed and were never tweaked. Often theres loops in a Sampler with polyphony or no choke, a Sampler with a two hihat oneshot (that will be offbeat if BPM is not the intended), etc…
QC is definitively terrible, often it feels like Group Kits aren't made by people that use Maschine.
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Hey thanks for the clarity! As for the example I gave, once you are in Keyboard Mode and Octave Down to Root Note C-2, the 2 Bar Sample appears to have chops assigned to that Octave Range. Almost like someone went through the trouble to chop up the sample… unless this is an 'automatic' function (auto chop/slice) that I've completely missed the past decade working with Maschine….😮
If you open up the Mixer View while triggering that sample in keyboard mode from that octave range, you can see that the sample is indeed chopped.
I have it on my Mikro MK3 in Keyboard Mode/Chromatic/Root Note C-2. As I play up the scale on the pads and look in the Mixer View in the Maschine 3 SW, I'm definitely getting slices as playback with graphical representation of which part of the sample (chop/slice) is playing back.
There seems to have been perhaps some old protocol whereby Expansions with playable slices/chops had those slices mapped to C-2 root note??? Just a guess, but in many Expansions with samples, if you go to Keyboard Mode while focused on those pads/samples and octave down to C-2 and play up the chromatic scale, you definitely get slices and not pitched down playback.
Again, I'm only bringing this up as I've been around since the MK1 days and the answers to these questions concerning Expansions have always eluded me. To be honest, with the release of Maschine 3 SW, I've been a bit more rigorous with testing and troubleshooting for stability/compatibility. When questions arise, I'm bringing em here and truly appreciate the help in understanding.
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Hey thanks for the clarity! As for the example I gave, once you are in Keyboard Mode and Octave Down to Root Note C-2, the 2 Bar Sample appears to have chops assigned to that Octave Range. Almost like someone went through the trouble to chop up the sample… unless this is an 'automatic' function (auto chop/slice) that I've completely missed the past decade working with Maschine….😮
No prob.
OOHH, you're right, I see what you're saying now. It's indeed a multi-sample Patch (Zone)… But it's doesn't look like a normal Sample that was Sliced in Maschine as the first slice is the full Sample and the following are truncated slices.
Amplified Funk is a collab with Amp Fiddler, in collabs is where you see the most awkward stuff, my assumption is often the Artist himself doesn't use Maschine so the NI sound design team adapts loops, one-shots or maybe even their projects to be more in-line with how an Expansion is supposed to be… but that process can lead to some awkwardness.
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Whew! I'm glad I was able to communicate what I am experiencing and that its not just something wonky on my end…
Not ALL samples behave the way I've described. Some of them just play a pitched down sample cut. It's really a matter of experimenting with the samples in the kits in the various expansions.
Also, I've noticed that when I move some of those samples from the Sampler engine to the Audio engine, I get better triggering/playback in more of a LIVE performance setting, especially when the sample almost lends itself to looped playback but wasn't set up in the correct engine… if that makes sense.
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Yeah. Regarding Loops being used in the Sampler instead of the Audio Plugin: Most often its because those expansions were made before the Audio Plugin even existed, other times it can just be that the collab expansion Artist likes loops on a Sampler…
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Ah! This makes sense.
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