Massive, why no arm in VST version?

ffx

Hi,

Massive is a nice, yet quite quite old synth. Many people used it in old projects. Therefore, for backward compatibility purposes, it would be much more helpful, if the VST version had mac ARM support implemented, not only the VST3 version.

Is it really that hard to add ARM to VST2.4? I already did by myself, and know that it is possible.

A new VST3 variant of a very old plugin, which assumingly will be replaced with more recent synths like Massive X in new song projects anyway, is not a well thought strategy in my opinion.

I wouldn't give a ****** about what Steinberg says about VST2.4 licensing. Since you already are a contractor, I don't see a issue here either.

Thanks for consideration.

iNate

The VST2 SDK was never ported to ARM, and Steinberg does not issue new licenses to target it. VST2 has been deprecated for almost 1.5 decades, and out of development for several years.

Everyone developing VST plug-ins is under contract. The SDK is not public domain, and it's not something you can just fork yourself. If they won't allow you to do this (and they won't), you will lose that case every time - it's pretty cut and dry. It is their technology. You don't get to dictate the terms of its use to them.

It's the same situation as ReWire. Reason Studios ended it, so any DAW that goes M1 Native has to drop support for ReWire de facto.

The same is true on Windows ARM machines for these technologies.

If you need to load those projects, load them under Rosetta 2 to do what you need to do.

ffx

No, most plugins which are ported to ARM actually provide a VST2 ARM version, too. Only NEWLY developed plugins only offer VST3. Rosetta 2 will be shut down at some point, just as Rosetta 1 was, too, by Apple.

Kymeia

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/206157#Comment_206157

Not only newly developed. An increasing number have been or are are in the process of removing VST2 versions eg u-he announced recently they are stopping providing VST2 version after the current round of updates

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=615856

iNate

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/206157#Comment_206157

VST2 can be maintained for existing plug-ins, but this does not include porting them to ARM Native. That is a completely different scenario.

Again, there is literally no ARM-native SDK for VST2. There is no way to compile them for ARM.

What are you even talking about.

When Rosetta 2 is shut down, VST2 will be shut down along with it. The only reason why those are usable is because of Rosetta 2. People should be replacing out of development VST2 plug-ins with in development VST3 products that perform the same function.

If you haven't done this by now (several years after M1's release), then you are WAY behind the 8 Ball.

chk071

It's still a complete mystery to me what Steinberg thinks should happen with VST2 MIDI plugins which can't be ported to VST3 without missing functionality, as VST3 doesn't include MIDI, and, to my knowledge, uses workarounds to provide some MIDI functionality, but doesn't work for everything MIDI (for example, BlueARP doesn't have all the functionality in its VST3, e.g., the MIDI thru options don't work).

IIRC, Steinbergs answer was to use the MIDI tools provided by DAWs, which are, in most cases, inferior to good third party MIDI tools.

iNate

Haven't noticed any difference in functionality regarding, say, Scaler 2 when used as VST3 instead of VST2.

Reason Rack Plug-in, which is used heavily for its player instruments (MIDI Processors), is VST3-only.

Other instruments are available in VST3 and do MIDI processing, and don't have feature disparities between the two plug-in formats.

Granted, I do use Cubase, so maybe they're doing something other developers aren't doing.

I'm not sure about BlueARP. I don't use it, but I think you have to be careful about projecting an issue with one or a few specific tools onto the entire market.

You can always write to Steinberg and inquire about these things. They own VST, not Native Instruments or any other company.

I think you're better off asking DAW and Plugin developers to support CLAP than complaining about VST2, which is effectively dead and only functional due to Apple's Rosetta 2 Translation Layer (on macOS).

Many producers have moved on from VST2. I haven't installed VST2 plug-ins for years. I have not really run into any issues with that. The only issue has really been the quality of VST3 support in some DAWs (e.g. Samplitude was pretty terrible for a while, and DP 11 was hit and miss - at least earlier on, since there have been many updates since its release).

chk071

"I'm not sure about BlueARP. I don't use it, but I think you have to be careful about projecting an issue with one or a few specific tools onto the entire market."

It's not the only plugin which lacks some MIDI functionality in the VST3 version. They actually only just re-added some MIDI functionality (MIDI learn for VST3 plugins, for example) in the last few versions of the VST3 SDK. Obviously, they realized that some things aren't possible as before.

It's possible that, on the plugins you mentioned, the developers found workarounds for non-existant functionality. There's also a lot that isn't in the VST2 SDK too, which developers figured out to work anyway.

Vocalpoint

"Many producers have moved on from VST2. I haven't installed VST2 plug-ins for years. I have not really run into any issues with that."

I have just a single VST2 left - Absynth. And that is it.

There is no point in using VST2 in any capacity in 2025

VP

ffx

I think we lost the original purpose of this discussion:

Massive 1 is an abandoned synth. But it's nice for people loading old projects to keep the song intact.

That's why my argument was that a VST3 version does not really make any sense, but a VST2 arm version very much, because then you can simply load your old songs on arm machines with full performance.

Also I know very personally that you can of course port a VST2 plugin to arm.

But I see that I am the only here with this kind of view, so let's close this thread simply. In the end, it was just a suggestion to think about it.

Vocalpoint

You summed it all up perfectly right here:

"Massive 1 is an abandoned synth. But it's nice for people loading old projects to keep the song intact."

This product has been in long term maintenance mode - for years. No one is going to invest any time, talent and resource to take it all apart and then attempt to rewrite it - from scratch - especially for anything that Apple could shut down at a moment's notice.

VP

Maciej Repetowski

VST2 is dead, thanks to Steinberg. Investing any money into it is corporate suicide.

chk071

Interesting definition of "abandoned", considering that it was updated 3 months ago.

Even got a new feature, scalable GUI, so, "maintenance mode" doesn't really cut it either.

It surely got a lot more updates recently than many other 20 year old soft synths I know.

But, I get it, unpopular opinion. I should shout that N.I. is a total ripoff, and stuff.

Vocalpoint

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/217827#Comment_217827

Well - I wouldn't call the GUI update exactly groundbreaking. Mysterious - yes - after all these years - but that is still maintenance work.

And judging by how poor it actually works - probably took an afternoon to include it.

VP

chk071

You know, that's all a bit of a knockout argument. Not in the sense that it is true, but, rather in the sense that there isn't much to reply apart from "people are asking for too much these days".

Again, if you can point me to the vast amount of 20 year old plugins getting scalable GUI updates these days, go ahead. That's neither the sign of an "abandoned" plugin for me, nor is it a sign of "maintenance mode", which I would consider consisting of critical bug fixes, or support for new OSs. Or whatever that synthentic construct of a software "maintenance mode" is supposed to mean.

Maybe, just maybe, we're all spoiled much, and need to get our expectations right.

Vocalpoint

”Maybe, just maybe, we're all spoiled much, and need to get our expectations right”

Well if anyone can explain “why” this old dog suddenly got a sizable GUI- that goes well beyond the usual whining about scaling on a 4K monitor - I am all ears.

Personally - I think it was an easy “win” and someone over there - like maybe a summer student or new hire needed to get their feet wet - so there it is.

But this inclusion does not suddenly “elevate” Massive to anything more than maintenance mode for me.

It remains in the classic realm of FM8, Battery and Reaktor - all of which are firmly in maintenance mode.

Would not be surprised at all if the begging and pleading for scaling makes it to these three as well some day.

VP