Maschine+ 4-D Encoder failure

Son_of_q
Son_of_q Member Posts: 11 Member
in Maschine

My Maschine+ (which was bought new 17 months ago) has a failing 4-D Encoder. The switches for left, right, up, down, and select are working, but the twist action isn't.

This is leaving me unable to change temp, swing, select plugin presets, type on the keyboard when naming projects etc.

Has anyone else come across this issue?

My unit is still under the 2 year warranty as comes standard in the UK.

p.s. I have already raised a ticket with NI, but nothing so far.

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Comments

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,217 mod

    Sorry to hear that. I havent seen anyone report a broken 4d encoder before, I guess within a bad situation you're lucky to still be in within warranty and don't live in the USA where warranty is just 1 year 🤣

    HW tech support should take care of you, let us know how the process goes.

  • Son_of_q
    Son_of_q Member Posts: 11 Member

    Yeah apparently it's just not something that happens!

    I was wondering if blasting some contact cleaner in would help, or would that void the warranty do you think?

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,217 mod
    edited October 10
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/183334#Comment_183334

    Contact cleaner is supposed to be non-conductive, non-corrosive and leave no residue but… I don't think it's worth the risk just in case.

    It might be more likely that a solder joint broke or the encoder itself is faulty, the 4D encoder has a separate PCB so it shouldnt be a loose connector issue or the tactile switches wouldn't work.

    Screenshot 2024-10-10 at 15.36.43.png

    The PCB with holes for flexibility is so cool to look at.

  • Son_of_q
    Son_of_q Member Posts: 11 Member

    Yeah you're absolutely right, now having seen the PCB it's kinda clear it's probably more a mechanical issue with the rotary part, which no amount of contact cleaner will help. And that design is nuts! So clever

  • PK The DJ
    PK The DJ Member Posts: 1,607 Expert

    I'm not sure what to think about that PCB design. I'd imagine that would be a potential point of failure, having tracks running on those thin sections. Maybe that's what's happened. Perhaps a crack has developed.

  • Son_of_q
    Son_of_q Member Posts: 11 Member

    Possibly, but the all of the switches (including the push down switch in the encoder itself) still work fine, just the twist action is dead. By the looks of it the ENC1 track runs alongside SW2, so I'd have thought that switch 2 would also be unresponsive but it's fine. Unless there's a very thin, partial fracture… It's a good call PK!

  • PK The DJ
    PK The DJ Member Posts: 1,607 Expert
    edited October 10

    ENC1 is the endless encoder in the centre, so I would assume that the three gold looking connections at the top (below SW3) are the important ones. Unfortunately we can't see where they go. It's probably a double sided board with tracks on the back from those three connections.

    I'm not about to take my Maschine+ apart to have a look 😄

    OK I found a YouTube video:

    maschine 4d pcb rear.jpg

    Looks like both the left and right legs go off to thin tracks that travel those flexible sections.

  • Son_of_q
    Son_of_q Member Posts: 11 Member

    Oh nice one for finding that! So by the looks of it, because the issue is the twist action of the endless encoder, the issue is gonna be with the first and/or third legs on the top. Probably a ****** solder job that's come loose. I'll put a comment on the ticket I have open to look at this thread. Thank you so much man!

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,217 mod
    edited October 11

    I've used these encoders in DIY projects before.

    All pins are important, all go to the ribbon connector, 3 top ones are for left/right rotation and bottom is for the push down switch.

    Screenshot 2024-10-11 at 14.57.52.png

    So if only rotation is faulty it's the 3 top ones, the odd thing is even if the A pin solder broke the B should work, unless the GND one broke then both would break disabling the software from receving LOW/HIGH states?

    Personally I'd fix this myself, I'm terrible at soldering and fixed similar stuff before on an MK3, USB connector, Pots, etc… But I don't advise anyone to be reckless like me especially while under warranty.

  • Son_of_q
    Son_of_q Member Posts: 11 Member

    I'm pretty decent with a soldering iron as I've done a bunch of arduino/esp32 projects and now I know it's just a standard 20mm shaft EC11 pot the temptation just to order one and do the fix myself is massive. But like you say, it's under warranty so really it's NI's issue to sort out. I've tested on MidiOX as well and its definitely dead so you're likely right that it's the ground pin that's failed in some way

  • PK The DJ
    PK The DJ Member Posts: 1,607 Expert

    Best to get it done under warranty. It could be as simple as reseating the ribbon cable, but if it's covered then let them handle it.

  • MKB
    MKB Member Posts: 11 Member

    Thanks for posting those pics; one of my day jobs is PCB design, and I've never seen such a PCB in over 30 years on that job. But that has some cool ideas which I might "borrow" at some time.

    It is likely that the cutouts on the PCB are there to provide a bit of mechanical give so that the PCB is not cracked in use. I would not worry too much about broken traces as that is rare on PCBs that have not encountered some significant trauma. I suspect the case area the 4D encoder knob resides in will limit the travel transmitted to the PCB. And the PCB shoudn't bend until after the switches are engaged.

    Agreed that the problem is most likely the ribbon cable (actually a FFC) not being seated correctly, or an issue with the encoder itself. If one is going to replace it, please get a decent one from NI (if they sell them) or a reputable supplier like Mouser or DigiKey. The encoders I have gotten from Amazon are ******.

  • PK The DJ
    PK The DJ Member Posts: 1,607 Expert

    I think the way it works (re the PCB cutouts) is that the PCB is fitted with the switches slightly separated from a fixed surface, so that when the encoder knob is nudged left/right/up/down, the whole centre PCB section flexes until a switch is activated by it hitting the fixed surface.

    In other words, the encoder itself doesn't have sideways joystick style movement. It's the PCB flexing that emulates the movement.

  • Afro Maestro
    Afro Maestro Member Posts: 3 Member

    Hi - what are your experiences with warranty support? I have a broken encoder in Maschine Mk3 and they want me to send them my equipment for repair, but I am afraid that I will receive it refurbished in a worse condition. Has anyone had this situation? I need either a repair or a spare part to repair myself - that's all I will be grateful for help...

  • Son_of_q
    Son_of_q Member Posts: 11 Member

    UPDATE: NI have asked that I send the unit in to them for repair/replacement. I'll keep everyone posted about how that goes as it happens. Thanks everyone so far for putting in their opinions, it really helped in getting the point across to NI what the issue was (that and the 2 videos of me showing that the twist action on the encoder was dead both on the unit and in MIDI-OX :D).
    Speak soon!

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