The Sheer Joy of 3.10.2

tempsperdu

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/147804#Comment_147804

It is incredibly bizarre when someone doesn't appear to have similar problems as someone else feels the need to constantly infer that the person experiencing the problems must be the fault, rather than realising that the software in question is nowhere near robust enough for the job in hand. Isn't that what is referred to as victim shaming?...........................

DunedinDragon

@tempsperdu

Victim shaming doesn't apply to someone that's not a victim of anyone but themselves.

I honestly don't know whether my update took 30 minutes or not. I started it and stepped away to do other things. I came back and it was done so I estimated 30 minutes. But the fact it worked flawlessly and I was able to get back to work on my projects immediately tells you something was clearly different between my setup and yours. How else do you explain it? Bad karma on your part?

You got exactly the same download as I did. How do YOU explain the difference in the results?

Monochrome

But shouldn't that tell you that the issue could very well be on your end somewhere and not Native Access being "nowhere near robust enough"?

For me and others, NA is solid working. I know, and understand, you don't wanna hear that (and we might very well see yet another thread of you anytime soon), but what do you expect at this point? NI fixing stuff, sure, but how when no one knows what's exactly going on there on your rig?

What have you done so far to troubleshoot stuff to find the exact cause?

I tried Process Monitor and see NTKDaemon scanning things. Still, Native Access opens up swiftly and doesn't "busy gif away". So, that doesn't really explain why it takes ages on your end but not for others.

Vocalpoint

"You got exactly the same download as I did. How do YOU explain the difference in the results?"

Pretty hard to argue with this. We ALL got the same download as everyone else in here.

If that is the case (and it is) shouldn't we ALL either have a 2 minute install or a 30-40 minute pain fest?

It is very obvious that there are massive differences in each of our installs. What those variables are - remain a mystery - but they are there.

Like I mentioned to another user in a GR thread recently - our computers do not have any capability whatsoever to simply decide (by themselves) to do a 30 minute install for one user and a 2 minute one for another.

They act upon what they are instructed to do - very explicitly - based on what's at the other end - when that download arrives.

VP

LostInFoundation

Do you guys understand that bugs don’t work this way?

Bugs are by definition bugging some systems and some other not, some plugins combinations and some other not, some use cases and some other not. This doesn’t mean that those systems, plugins combinations or use cases have something wrong. Just that they are not the same as yours.

If it wasn’t like this, it would be enough for developers to test things on their single system and with only their use case and things would come out perfectly.

If then you still want to say that since for you everything work this means nothing is wrong…I suggest you to have a look at the forum more deeply: the amount of cases reported speaks differently.

The fact that I didn’t encounter one of the many issues NA is having lately (one for all: how many people are writing that their programs disappeared from NA?) doesn’t mean that those issues doesn’t exist. Sometimes it happens that someone from NI acknowledge some issues (like in the case of the disappearing programs). Why in a case like this you don’t say anything? If you didn’t encounter the same disappearing…it should mean it doesn’t exist. You had exactly the same download as the guys that found the (acknowledged by NI) bug…how do you explain the difference? (See? Not so hard to argue with this, in the end).

Are NI experts acknowledging the bugs you didn’t encounter just liars like the users you find so hard to believe to?

@tempsperdu just one suggestion: try to find a way to speak directly with someone from NI…this forum world is crazy…you will always find someone (and it’s always the same guys…) telling you you are the problem, from their expert in debugging position, with their deep and exhaustive testing (consisting in “it isn’t happening for me, so it’s impossible it exists”…).

And I would not use the similitude of victim shaming: see how they answer? You are just a victim of yourself… I remember you that there are still people thinking “she wear a miniskirt…she had it coming to her”…

tempsperdu

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/147893#Comment_147893

Hardly a victim to myself other than using NI software... as far as anyone can say, including the people at NI who have actually at least half bothered to respond, the problem lies not just with NA2 but NI products in general because similar issues occur with Kontakt, KK and Maschine. Yes, not everybody has these problems, but YES some do and NI doesn't appear to be at all bothered by it enough to properly assist in addressing it.

It appears to be, in theory, a reaction to some plugins, though finding out which is quite a job. Now given that Bitwig, Reaper, MuLab, Waveform, Freestyle, Harrison Mixbus 32 have no issues at all in dealing with exactly the same plugins then how come NI products do? Surely if the NI products had a similar robustness there wouldn't be an issue.

I don't make the products, including the NTK Daemon, go endlessly rifle through my VST3 folder, the code in the installed software does. It's rather interesting that some kind of 'misalignment' between the NI code and whatever third party software is causing the issue can somehow make the NI products endlessly scan and rescan the VST 3 folder when in two cases they have hardly any ability, if at all, to use VST3s.......................

If you actually have any helpful insights, then I'm sure they would be preferable to your bizarre myopia....

tempsperdu

Monochrome

What have you done so far to troubleshoot stuff to find the exact cause?

Pretty much all I can other than the long painstaking processing of taking out groups of plugins until the culprit(s) may show themselves.

I've given Centrecode all the details I can, including error reports generated by Maschine.

The general inference is that there is not the time or will to be bothered other than cursory comments borne by glancing at the error reports and that without further explanation, I can't really pursue myself.

I am not a programmer, but you would think that those that are would have a reasonable inkling what could be going on and would actually want to solve the issue. UVI would.......but then NI are certainly not UVI.

You will not understand what might be going on by looking at your own system that has no issues, and what kind of addled thinking would make you think you could?

tempsperdu

LostInFoundation

@tempsperdu just one suggestion: try to find a way to speak directly with someone from NI…this forum world is crazy…you will always find someone (and it’s always the same guys…) telling you you are the problem, from their expert in debugging position, with their deep and exhaustive testing (consisting in “it isn’t happening for me, so it’s impossible it exists”…).

And I would not use the similitude of victim shaming: see how they answer? You are just a victim of yourself… I remember you that there are still people thinking “she wear a miniskirt…she had it coming to her”…

I have spoken directly to people at NI in the Maschine Beta and Kontakt Beta, including putting in bug reports.

They see it as unfortunate but feel they haven't got the time or resources to do much about it, thinking I should go through the process of taking out plugins till possible culprits are found rather than addressing what might be occurring in their code.

I suppose I could submit a bug report about NA, but given they are well aware that many have quite severe issues as is noted on here, and they haven't got the decency to respond in any way, I doubt that will be very fruitful.

Yes, the reason I actually mentioned victim shaming is that the attitude extant in this thread is pretty similar to 'Yes, it's your fault. You were wearing a short skirt.'

Vocalpoint

@LostInFoundation

"Bugs are by definition bugging some systems and some other not, some plugins combinations and some other not, some use cases and some other not. This doesn’t mean that those systems, plugins combinations or use cases have something wrong. Just that they are not the same as yours."

You are making a blanket generalization that because in this case - some systems exhibit issues and some do not - automatically make this a bug.

For all we know - some user who is experiencing a 32 minute install - might have some dinky VST from 2017 (that no one else has) that has had an obscure internal issue for 7 years and is being subjected to same old tiresome scans time and time again simply because NA cannot navigate around it.

There is no way that NA could possibly account for (or cleanly interlock with) all the infinite combinations of ****** we have on our systems worldwide - nor could it ever been tested long enough to overcome them all.

I would go with configuration issues (some major - some minor and some unknown/obscure) for some users well before implying this a rampant (provable) bug. (not yet anyway)

VP

Vocalpoint

@tempsperdu

"Pretty much all I can other than the long painstaking processing of taking out groups of plugins until the culprit(s) may show themselves"

Can I ask - how many plugins do you have in play?

VP

Wassup

30-40 minutes? I think upgrading from W7 to 10 didn't take that long.

How many Linux distros can be installed in that time?

PK The DJ

He's said elsewhere that he has 1000 or more plugins.

It stands to reason that if it takes the software (for example) 6 minutes to scan 100 plugins, then it will take ten times longer (60 minutes) to scan 1000 - all else being equal.

I agree it shouldn't be necessary for NI software to scan plugins every time it starts. That needs addressing.

When the scanning takes place though, there's no avoiding the logic. Having more plugins will mean longer scanning time.

tempsperdu

No idea but well over 1000 which is why going through them is such a chore......and that is made more difficult because it doesn't take NI products much 'encouragement' to start to do a full rescan which takes hours.

That said, if what is basically a one-man show (MuLab) can produce a DAW that has no issues with any of the plugins, how come the resources of NI can't?

Why is it even in the code of particularly NA2 to scan VST3's anyway????????????????????

Then again, the plugin scanning is only one of a myriad of issues people are having with NA2, there's the loading freeze, the login issues, etc etc etc......................

PK The DJ

Has anyone else experienced Native Access scanning VSTs when it starts?

I've never seen my copy scan VSTs - ever.

Why would it even need to? It's software for installing NI products, not a VST host.

I looked online earlier for any reference to Native Access scanning VSTs and found nothing.

DunedinDragon

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/147928#Comment_147928

You're right in that bugs are not universal, and that's why there's several stages of testing that occur in a commercial product, one of one of the most important these days is integration testing with the various environments that a product needs to work with. I have no idea how comprehensive that form of testing is at NI, but there's no doubt they were limited with what they could do with Sonoma as it was released late in the development cycle just prior to release of the NI products which were already out in Beta.

I don't think anyone is saying there's NOTHING wrong. With the number of NI Mac users and the problems with Sonoma there's plenty wrong, and plenty that's STILL wrong if you read the Release notes for these new releases because Apple still has a lot of stuff THEY need to correct to fix all the bugs that have been identified as their responsibility. But laying ALL the blame on NI is absolutely incorrect. There are things they can't control either.