The Sheer Joy of 3.10.2

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  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 424 Pro
    edited May 7

    Deleted double post… did anyone mention centrecode sucks………………………..

  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 424 Pro

    Vocalpoint Just know this will be VERY interesting (and possible humbling for some)
    to find out after ALL this "year long investigation" of the "scanning"
    phenomena that one's system (or it's ancient-ness or it's massive plugin
    count - OR something in addition to these) turns out to be the reason
    after all.

    It shouldn't matter up to a point how old your computer is or how many plugins you have, these scans have no noticeable justification that we are aware of.

    If the aim is to improve performance for users, in many instances, that is a more than spectacular fail.

    No other software has these issues, and neither did NI software until they decided to surreptitiously introduce this scanning.

    So just what is its purpose and why do they refuse to answer any questions about it?

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 2,224 Expert
    edited May 7

    "Again, Kontakt 7 is not a DAW, it doesn't use plugins. I'm not sure if there is a simpler way to put it"

    Totally understood - I get it.

    But that new browser in K7 still needs to know what it is NKS compliant and what is not.

    This could also end up being something as goofy as Kontakt saying "Hey user - I need to find your NKS compliant Instruments ONLY - but I see they are sitting alongside 560 other plugins you have out there - so I guess I will need to scan them all to be sure"

    Ideal - no. Time consuming (for some but not all) - yes.

    VP

  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 424 Pro

    Vocalpoint

    But that new browser in K7 still needs to know what it is NKS compliant and what is not.

    Can you think of any reason why it can't do this on its initial scan and retain that info?

  • _Stevie_
    _Stevie_ Member Posts: 29 Member

    But that new browser in K7 still needs to know what it is NKS compliant and what is not.

    Yeah, go check my Kontakt library path for that purpose, not my VST path 🤓
    Kontakt cannot make use of external VST instruments.
    I totally understand Komplete "needs" to scan all folders, since it can cover more than Kontakt libraries.


    Honestly, the simplest way would be an on demand scan and not an automatic scan on startup.

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 2,224 Expert
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/152139#Comment_152139

    Yes I can. Because someone over there has not really thought this through.

    A delta checkpoint would be the very first thing I would code if this was my project to manage.

    Scan once - establish a checkpoint. Subsequent runs compare the checkpoint with the environment. If unchanged - carry on. If changes are discovered - deal with the changes only (quick scan of one or two or three new things) - add them to a new checkpoint, rinse and repeat.

    VP

  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 424 Pro
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/152143#Comment_152143

    They must know about this. They never needed more than an initial scan, so why do they need it now and why won't they respond about it?

    Obviously, they think this is OK, and that is damned insulting.

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,378 mod
    edited May 8

    Hello, all!

    Some familiar, friendly, and also new faces here. If you don't know me: I represent Maschine and Kontrol, and it's from that lens that I hope to add some clarity about why we do certain things. Meanwhile, I know @Hayo_NI and team are hard at work resolving some Native Access issues, and bringing forth an updated community forum post to help.

    It is really really important to separate this thread into two concepts: WHY and WHAT.

    WHY do we scan things?

    WHAT is causing recent performance issues?

    I think in trying to diagnose the latter, conspiracy theories about the former began to ferment. Recognizing the issues are deeply frustrating (we are users too, so have also been affected), I wanted to offer some explanations by way of help.

    —

    WHY

    We scan VST plug-ins for routine reasons. There is nothing untoward about the WHY.

    • NTK Daemon is the engine that powers Native Access. It is explained here.
    • We scan 3rd party VST plug-ins for routine reasons: we make multiple plug-in hosts (Maschine, Kontrol).
    • Hosts regularly scan plug-ins to keep their database (and knowledge of the plug-ins within it) up-to-date and reduce loading or stability issues. For instance, a re-scan often fixes a majority of the plug-in hosting issues reported to us, or indeed to other hosts (e.g. DAWs).
    • When any host scans plug-ins, the plug-in may also report activation status to the host, again as routine.
    • Many 3rd party VST plug-ins are also Native Kontrol Standard (NKS) compatible, and install relevant metadata and imagery to power the software←→hardware mapping(s). In such cases, we're also looking for that metadata when scanning. This is benign and simply functional, rather than anything invasive.

    We also scan content for similar reasons.

    • Content in this context refers to Kontakt instruments (1st or 3rd party), not VST instruments.
    • Such instruments are also scanned as a matter of routine.
    • Such instruments may also be NKS compatible, come with relevant metadata, etc etc.
    • In terms of Kontakt scanning behaviors, I hope this helps shed some light:
      • Our product scan implementation – regardless of whether it's packaged in the ScanApp for Kontrol, Maschine or integrated into the Browser always performs the same product scan.
      • Since some of our products are interested in VSTs by NKS partners, all products that use the same scanning code (NA, MAS, KK, GR, Kontakt, MX) scan for VSTs as well.
      • I can assure you that Kontakt, MX, GR don't do anything with that information, but the scan happens anyway.

    The above helps explain WHY we do things, particularly in relation to Kontrol and Maschine, hence why some of you DM'd me to chime in.

    However, there are also questions about WHAT is happening at present, as load times have increased in correlation with recent updates. I can give a brief overview, but rest assured @Hayo_NI and team are working hard on a longer, more qualified community response and shipping resolution to the issues.

    —

    What

    • Native Access 2 is currently experiencing a regression. That much is clear.
    • The root cause is still under investigation. It may have something to do with deprecated HFS file-paths, and various related and new formats, but @Hayo_NI and team will let you know once it's been properly dealt with (read: I am not qualified nor the right person to deal with this).
    • It also seems as if there is either an issue resulting in Native Access validating paths and checking activation states of products that are only relevant for Kontrol and Maschine. Native Access knew to ignore these prior to 3.9.0, hence the temporary workaround posted below (use NA 3.8.1)
    • The symptoms are multiple and variable, but can affect load times, and our knowledge of installed products, which in turn causes loading issues.
    • Not every user on every system will see them. Which is why some of you have, and some of you haven't (note: please try not to argue with one another when experiencing variable issues).

    —

    How we'll proceed

    @Hayo_NI is working on another community post with more details to address the comments within this thread, and he and the NA team are hard at work resolving them.

    Though the root causes may be multiple, and the symptoms may be variable, there is a potential workaround our customer support team has established, that may help some of you. I cannot possibly promise it will help all. I will post this workaround in a separate post below this one, temporarily. Typically, requests for such information should be addressed exclusively via our customer support channels, but in this case I recognize the criticality of the issues for y'all, and that waiting a week or so for response is untenable.

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,378 mod
    edited May 8

    As promised, a temporary post that will be deleted once the issues are fully resolved and/or customer support has caught up.

    A reliable workaround for users affected by the issues unable to login into NA and/or NA stuck on the "Loading products" screen:

    Affected systems:

    • Users on macOS & Windows
    • Users with lots of installed 3rd party NKS supporting plugins

    Workaround:

    Please note: this is clearly a temporary workaround for critical use only

  • rdalcroft
    rdalcroft Member Posts: 193 Advisor
    edited May 8
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/152336#Comment_152336

    Thanks for the explanation and work a round.

    Problem is the work a round does not seem to work.

    I followed your instructions. But the issue is when Native access updates back to 3.10.3 it hangs loading products:

    Screenshot 2024-05-08 141430.png

    The difference seems to be the "installed_products" folder created in the: C: > Users > Public > Public Documents > Native Instruments > folder. which is not there in the 3.8.1 version of Native Acces.

    Issue is when trying to revert to 3.8.1, it will auto update to 3.10.3 on the next restart.

    I know from correspondence from @Hayo_NI, that 3.11.0 is on its way, hopefully this may be an improvement, but will not be a complete fix, as there will still be work to do for a total for fix this issue.

    Update: Closing Native access and restarting it seems to do the trick, but this should not be the way it works, it should not hang on the initial load up. Just a nitpik.

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,378 mod

    @rdalcroft as I mentioned, the workaround may not work around for all, and yes, the annoyance is that it will auto update upon restart.

  • _Stevie_
    _Stevie_ Member Posts: 29 Member

    Thanks for those insights Matthew.

    Content in this context refers to Kontakt instruments (1st or 3rd party), not VST instruments.

    Such instruments are also scanned as a matter of routine.

    Such instruments may also be NKS compatible, come with relevant metadata, etc etc.

    Kontakt does not have a ScanApp - but perhaps the above helps explain why some of you thought it would be scanning VST plug-ins. Perhaps some NKS compatible VST plug-ins have incorrect metadata that prompts Kontakt to scan them. TBD.

    Just to be sure, does that mean, when killing all NI demons, then Kontakt 7 should start immediately? Just making sure, because you mentioned that Kontakt 7 itself doesn't have any scan engine.

  • _Stevie_
    _Stevie_ Member Posts: 29 Member

    Hosts regularly scan plug-ins to keep their database (and knowledge of the plug-ins within it) up-to-date and reduce loading or stability issues. For instance, a re-scan often fixes a majority of the plug-in hosting issues reported to us, or indeed to other hosts (e.g. DAWs).

    Sorry, but this is not true. Most DAWs don't scan regularly. They keep track of the already scanned plugins in a database and only check if newer plugins were installed. A DAW does not constantly scan for all installed plugins. That would be very inefficient.

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 2,224 Expert
    edited May 8

    "Sorry, but this is not true. Most DAWs don't scan regularly. They keep track of the already scanned plugins in a database and only check if newer plugins were installed. A DAW does not constantly scan for all installed plugins. That would be very inefficient"

    Studio One does. My choices are scan On or Off. There is no in-between.

    If I want my plugin content to be current 100% the time - leave the scan on.

    If I am tired of the scan - I can ice it anytime but then it is on me to figure out why new plugins, removed plugins or updated plugins do not appear correctly.

    VP

  • _Stevie_
    _Stevie_ Member Posts: 29 Member
    edited May 8

    No, that's not what I meant.

    No DAW does re-scan ALL plugins installed on your system every time. It keeps a database of already installed plugins in order to skip those.

    Whereas Kontakt 7 scans ALL plugins installed on my system every time I open it.

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