Maschine plus upgrades (ableton push 3 released)
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Haha. I don’t even have a horse ;) And I also do remember the “hardware only times”. Having a live electro act with loads of hardware all sequenced from a RM1x and RS7000. Anyway, at the same time nobody was averse to using computer, we were using amiga with trackers, and Atari ST with (cracked)Cubase. But it’s all good. My observation is just that exactly this older generation seems to be less averse to using computers (a guy called Gerald?) than the newer generation. Maybe it’s understandable if one never experienced a computer-less approach. Dunno. Just some personal thoughts and observations, apologies if they came across as negative. Enjoy the day!
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I've had the M+ since release and now also own a Push 3 standalone since release.
Most of the points of criticism that apply to the M+ also apply to the Push 3 standalone. Again, without the software (Live / maschine) you won't get any further in many places. If anything, Push/M+ make a great team. Because they compensate for each other's weaknesses well. Sure, it could be other devices, but I personally will have a lot of fun with it.
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Word. I was going to go into a slight rant, about how the "community" doesn't need to end up like Ableton or FL forum....bunch of post the manual can answer. But all responses different answers and "please supply specs" replies.
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In my last comment I made a statement questioning. Why would someone buy the Push 3 to have standalone software they already own. Apologies seen a vid while taking morning.....and learned. The Push 3 comes with Live Lite 🤣 Ableton Push 3 STANDALONE // What They Didn't Tell You
This is why the NI "community" forums is great and since the company changes, should stay great. First MPCx/SE debate over "color way" and "sonics" 🤨. Now Push 3/Standalone vs Maschine MK3/+ (that shouldn't even started). And they come out the box pushing Live Lite...so you got plug up to use upgrade version 🤔
@D-One, I agree with your opinion. Because if someone would have done an "box opening" of Push 3 by page 4 of this discussion things this thread would be boring.
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For anyone curious the computer inside the Push 3 is an "Intel NUC 11 Compute Element CM11EBi38W"(i3-1115G4). Intel's recommended price is $286 (?) so P3's standalone price is a little hard to swallow. (source)
The Maschine Plus has a Conga-QA5 (Atom x5-E3940), older but priced more reasonably.
Interest levels according to google trends seem balanced to me without anyone dominating the others.
Of course, if I add "Akai MPC" as a general term given its long history we see exactly what I said, it dominated but has declining interest over the years especially after direct competition came along but more or less as popular as Maschine or Push right now. With this recent move, I belive Push will start climbing, but we will see...
Are the buttons around the Pads mushy like the Push-2? It's hard to explain but is it like a thin rubber over a switch? I never liked those mushy buttons.
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Im kinda hoping ableton will give you the option to just buy the cradle and battery, so you came throw your own Intel nuc in there. I have a couple 24 thread compute elements from a previous job. Would love to throw one in there. As part of the pricing argument, they only cost $600 each when you order 100 or more.
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Wait, 600$? where did that number came from?
That sounds too good to happen but it would be amazing, so much cheaper.. but if that was a possibility then no one would buy it from Ableton... or is this kind of module only sold to companies in X amounts? I see them available in places like ebay for 300$.
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The modules I have, have the intel 13700kf onboard. If you purchase them as a consumer, I think you have to buy the kits. Haven’t seen em listed on their own anywhere. They have a 16 core, 24 thread processor, 2 DDr5 slots, 2nvme slots, and a pci express slot on the board.
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You need to factor in a lot more than the raw cost of the actual PC as the overall cost. As a start, it would be running a custom Linux OS with custom Ableton designed to run on Linux and would also have all the custom integrated drivers for the audio interface and Push etc. Then there is the custom plates for install, custom battery pack (something M+ does not have), stress testing to ensure heat can be handled, performance is maintained and battery life is adequate etc...
It's the same argument that goes on when people compare just the raw CPU power of a mac compared to building your own, people aren't just paying for raw materials, they are paying for an overall solution and experience and it costs money to make something that can be switched on and used without messing around with everything for days to get it working. Coupled with that is access to support since if you have issues at all with your own custom solution you have no (limited) help available from Ableton and not to forget all your Push hardware and the upgrade kit is warranted where a custom solution would likely void warranty if it happens to damage Push at all.
I am not disagreeing that $1600 (Australian) seems like a lot for what appears to be pretty mild computing power but it is installed and working in probably 40 minutes and is designed for the task at hand and will work as advertised. How long would it take to source, custom fit and get working a cacophony of parts and how would things like heat dissipation, battery life, physical fit, software and driver support for the hardware, reliability in performance all go?
You can bet tho, if it is possible to install 3rd party processors there will be a market for people supplying kits at some stage I am sure
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for people who care about processor specs; this intel chip inside of push 3 is about three times more potent than the ones inside maschine+:
of course, processor power is one thing, how well the software is optimized another. but seeing how bad they did it on the maschine+, i would bet the new push runs much smoother, even with bigger project..
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You might want to back up a bit and take a breath hahahaha, go read the Ableton website again, something along the lines of "Specially modified version of NUC elements" (Paraphrasing) the likelihood of 3rd party or standard parts fitting this thing, very low, current upgrade of controller to standalone = £999, more than current price of Maschine+ new = £899 (UK prices) and you think that is some kind of game changer?
Removing a specially modified NUC element to fit the latest greatest version, you may get somebody who wants to buy the old one second hand, but if it is generationally out of date, then it wont fetch much, so that is another factor, especially considering the new latest greatest version will likely cost the same price as other developers entire standalone units (See above) and wait, have you been using that controller you are updating with the latest greatest, are all the buttons still fresh as a daisy, are all the encoders still working smoothly, but the stupid other developer is just releasing a whole new unit with all new buttons/encoders etc etc etc at the same price as the upgrade.
Yes, really game changing, good luck falling in to that never ending money pit.
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Not entirely sure the point you are trying to make here, a lot of DAWs could do all of this, way before Garageband could, we were talking about standalone hardware units.
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That's precisely the point... the iPad is standalone hardware unit touchscreen based with the option for external midi control surfaces, not just a computer. Until Logic for iPad for lot of users it wasn't even a computer (but a toy) because there weren't professional tools (even certain apps got features before its desktop "standard" counterparts... cof cof Serato cof cof Traktor cof cof Stems cof cof Video) but now that "argument" hasn't value anymore.
iPad weren't computers but glorified phones, ok...
iPadOS bring the needed features such files and pseudo mouse and dedicated keyboards...
iPad Pro aren't pro because there aren'r pro apps, ok...
DaVinci Resolve, Logic Pro, Final Cut...
iPad with Logic (and with garageband to a certain degree) is:
- standalone hardware unit
- touchscreen based and designed with that in mind
- capable of external midi control surface option (and storage, wifi, bluetooth...)
- upgradeable since iPad is a platform itself so I can run Koala on my old iPhone SE 1st gen (100 bucks second hand) or the latest M1 but if we focus just in Logic then the "pro" devices and even so iPad air 4 can handle it (garageband can run on that old iPhone SE 1st with live loops)
Note aside is some apps like Samplr are an instrument themselves but because were designed with touchscreen as user interaction in mind not just as menu diving (and that's why Apple hired the developer to implement it inside Logic).
I know you (all not just Flexi) are referring to "mpc-like" units but in these "trend decline" about mpc hardware we should look also to "tablet music making trend" to see if grows or not over the same time.
Said that I also prefer "standalone" like Force over iPad solutions but because I'm getting old and lonely not because it's a computer with mail and tiktok or not well integrated solutions with pads etc. I even consider buying a Toraiz or just an Rc505 and load stems on it as backtrack but I can do that just with an iPhone and the zillion apps playing linear wav files... only if I need physical faders/pads then dabbling with plug novation audiohub, launchcontrol xl and launchpad is required but also I can plug a midi pedal (or bluetooth) into an iPhone placed at mic stand...
I prophesy an era with detachable touchscreen based standalone hardware units from brands (like the Numark Dashboard I posted some times last months) with for live gigging.
Grab my words!
xD
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Push 3's cpu is still a bit weak for $2k. but enough for efficient users and early explorers. I'll wait until the quad core (which already exists) is offered by Ableton. It seems wecan't simply buy the processor ($350 msrp) from Intel as there may be some custom fitting on Ableton's part.
For those of us with large or high CPU sessions, I think the best move right now is to get the tethered Push 3 and upgrade later. I already saw some early videos that note Standalone gets sluggish when using large sampled instruments.
Still, kudos to Ableton for setting the bar high with optional upgrades and MPE. They are also very lucky that Bitwig does not have the budget to pull this off yet.
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@Flexi said:
Yes, really game changing, good luck falling in to that never ending money pit.
Not sure what you on about... I'm already in a never-ending money pit because I use 2 computers and upgrade them every few years, I don't see how doing the exact same with a standalone is any different 🤷♂️ I love my upgradable desktop and it's the reason I built one.
To me and many folks yes, it's still a game changer because with an upgradable standalone made by an industry giant on the market for the 1st time NI and AKAI are more likely to have to follow... Personally, I would never pay 2000$ for a standalone but I am happy it exists now and at least we have something to talk about.
But you do have a point, I need to back up and take a breath, I totally disregarded the rest of the "PC" that the nuc attaches too, however, I don't believe there's much modification... if there is it's probably to prevent people from upgrading outside Ableton.
Even if someone comes up with a hack to install other NUC's I am not sure how you would manage 250W of heat dissipation on a passively cooled package, you would melt the precious MPE pads. :D
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