Logic now available for iPad - thoughts?

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  • EFTHIMIS
    EFTHIMIS Member Posts: 11 Member
    edited May 2023
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    Good move from apple. I was certain that this will happen someday. It's interesting everytime apple finds a way to keep ipad customers close.

    It is a very good idea to have the Komplete library working on the ipad with maschine MK3, Komplete Kontrol integration and let it be with a subscription. A good price would be €15. I would personally like this scenario for the following reasons:

    1. I will only have an ipad. I will not be forced to have both. Μαcbook and ipad

    2. I will have access to the most up-to-date plugins, I cannot afford to pay for ultimate/collectors edition every 2-3 years.

    I hope this happens!

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,844 Expert
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    Just to mention.... NI already develops and has products for Linux - Maschine+. But the worst thing is probably the interface, which is not the case concerning M+ plugin ports....

    I know that young folks go touchable thingies... It already causes problems e.g. in surgeon training.... And what it makes with the brain.... We will see one day....

    I cannot proove it, but my feeling is that Apple is kind of anglo-saxon thing. Because of the way how educational system works. And maybe China as status item.

    So, it is driven by other reasons than wealthiness, IMHO. But yes, anglo-saxon countries are also wealthy.

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 2,990 mod
    edited May 2023
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    I think it stopped only being 'young folks' quite some time ago, I'm almost 40 and so are many of my friends and acquaintances and tons of them stare at a phone all day... Heck, my mom asked me to buy her a new iPhone just today!! She can barely send an email... lmao!!

    a bit off topic but yeah I'm sure it causes physical problems, heck I have problems from using a mouse and sitting around too much, so... pick your poison I guess? All this is probably negligible compared to mental problems caused by staring at Instagram or Tik-Tok "content" all day but I digress.

    Wealth is def not the only reason, just a major contributing factor since you kind of need money to buy expensive things. Marketing, status, ease of use, myths, current ecosystem, are all other reasons to choose whatever platform... Personally, I couldn't care less, I have no horse in that race as I don't have brand loyalty, just a personal preference that could very well change at any point.

    Just to mention.... NI already develops and has products for Linux - Maschine+.

    For me, that's just a great example of how something can be poorly ported over to another platform when not enough care is taken.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,844 Expert
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    Yes, porting to a new platform is not just recompiling and few minor changes to code. Just Apple users have the feeling that porting SW to a new Apple Silicon is just a little update.... That should be delivered on day 0, at worst....

    Sitting and mouse. Yes it may cause physical problems.... Needs good chair, right table, right monitor position (overall perfect ergonomy) and physical practice to compensate... I have no real problems after 30+ years of spending with computers 8+ hours a day.

    I spoke more about underdevelopment of certain parts of brain if using preferably touch devices. Such people lack micromotorics ability needed for surgery. And maybe more problems will emerge later on. The body movements influence the brain.... And how it is formed.

    As I said, my guess is that Apple computers/tablets is more about type of school system, than richness. But of course one must have resources to be able to buy it...

    I am still on phone for 100 bucks, or so. I may drop it from height, I may submerge it to water, I may forget it in public transport... And no Instagram, FB, Tik-Tok, Whatsup in it.... To stare at. :-)

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,320 Expert
    edited May 2023
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    This is what I don’t get…

    Little mathematics:

    15$ x 12 months = 180€

    180$ x 3 years = 540€

    The Collectors update during Summer of sound is something like 290€. And you keep it. Not like in subscriptions where if you stop paying you lose everything

    Can somebody explain me?

    (btw: I strongly doubt a subscription for all the things Collectors contain would ever be 15€…the subscription they have now for Komplete Now is 10€ and it contains 15 instruments and 9 fx…Collectors contains 108 instruments, 32 fx and 103 Expansions)

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 2,990 mod
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    It is a very good idea to have the Komplete library working on the ipad with maschine MK3, Komplete Kontrol integration and let it be with a subscription

    That ain't happening anytime soon but would be cool except for the subscriptions part...

    If a subscription is already something people tend to dislike imagine having to pay a subscription to use your NI HW when the only thing that justifies the price for said hardware is their software features... yikes!

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
    edited May 2023
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  • holonology
    holonology Member Posts: 80 Helper
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    I am not against the idea of a subscription, but only if it's done in a way where you can keep the things you made with the subscription if it isn't active. Arcade does a good job of this, where you can still load their sounds when your sub is cancelled (you just can't edit anything.)

    This is obviously harder with a DAW, when it contains full projects, so I'm not sure if this is possible. But in principle my only issue with subscriptions is the loss of content and/or access at the end of a subscription.

    As for Logic itself, one of my main reasons for not choosing it vs Ableton was the GUI. I have to say that, impressively, this new version is highly polished and if the UI is taken over from Logic iOS into the main DAW, I think it will be a lot easier to use on desktop.

    Pricing wise, the addition of a subscription potentially brings it closer to other DAWs in terms of price. For example, famously, one of the big upsides of Logic was the fact that is rarely charges for an update. To be fair $200 upfront (one-time?!) and then $50 per year isn't going to break the bank, especially when you think you're actually getting 2 DAWs and 2 different music making experiences for that money. But where Logic was once a no-brainer on price, it now becomes more of a decision as you have to factor in not only the price of the DAW/subscription, but also 2 reasonably specced Apple devices.

    So it's a mixed picture, but I think what could set it apart is the experience. For a long time, iOS has been seen as a second cousin to "real" desktop DAWs. But I think the fact that Apple is tyrying to make it its own thing with dedicated versions of the instruments (not jst blind copies of the desktop software) is a really interesting move. As with so many aspects of Apple, that one thing is the thing that could make it compelling.

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,307 Guru
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    You are leaving out the upfront cost of $1800 for KCE.

    10 years of KCE with upgrades of $290 every 2 years = $1800 + (4 x $290) = $2960

    10 of theoretical "KCE sub" at $20/month = 120 x $20 = $2400

    I'll take the sub please. Much less hassle AND YOU'LL BE ABLE TO USE ALL THE NEW KCE CONTENT AS IT COMES OUT!!!!!!!

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,320 Expert
    edited May 2023
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    I never spent 1800$ for Komplete.

    My first Komplete bundle was bought through a cross grade offer for Maschine owners, and if I recall correctly I spent 800.

    Following your mathematics, for 10 years I probably spent 800 + (4x290) = 1960€. Even with your (as you correctly say, theoretical…it will never happen at that price) sub I would have spent 440€ less…and I would keep all the instruments I bought in these 10 years, not remain with nothing as soon as I stop the subscription. Just I’ll have to wait before having the brand new instruments. As it’s ok for you to pay more to have them immediately, it’s ok for me to wait but then keeping them.

    But you are correct, I forgot the initial buy in.

    Only difference I see is that I could have stopped there. I would have spent 800 for an instruments bundle which value was 4000-5000, not buy anything else and still have ALL those instruments to use. This is my only problem with subscriptions: if you stop paying it you remain with NOTHING and you will also not be able to access the music you made. And this is also why I’M NOT AGAINST subscriptions, just I always ask to have the choice. Give to every type of user what is best for him. It’s a little bit like car leasing: if cars are your passion and you agree to spend more (yes, buying with leasing IS more expensive than paying upfront), it’s a very nice thing that you have the choice to have this form of payment so that every 2 years you can change your car and have the brand new shiny model. But for the other customers, is a very nice thing they have the opportunity to pay for their car and owning it. Why in the software world they can’t do that? Give different users their different choices.

    And again: you were correct to use the word “theoretical”: if the subscription they have now gives you 15 instruments and 9 fx for 10€, the subscription for ALL instruments, ALL fxs, ALL expansions and immediate access to everything new they do as it comes out will NEVER be 20€

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,307 Guru
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    Partial Quote: ALL expansions and immediate access to everything new they do as it comes out will NEVER be 20€

    Wait and see.. I believe it is very possible and almost unavoidable if NI wants to be competitive.

    It will be very different than the lame Komplete Now offering.. won't have all the current content of KCE14... but will have tons of great stuff built with new scalable GUI.

    And cost $20/month. That is the market price.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,844 Expert
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    @nightjar

    You are leaving out the upfront cost of $1800 for KCE.


    10 years of KCE with upgrades of $290 every 2 years = $1800 + (4 x $290) = $2960


    10 of theoretical "KCE sub" at $20/month = 120 x $20 = $2400


    I'll take the sub please. Much less hassle AND YOU'LL BE ABLE TO USE ALL THE NEW KCE CONTENT AS IT COMES OUT!!!!!!!

    But one may buy or receive with HW Komplete Select and upgrade at Sale.... Not speaking about buying secondhand... I have never paid for KxU CE more than 500 EUR and the last time sold it for 700 EUR....

    But, if one buys it only from NI... Spends 100+200+600 (KS->K->KU CE), 900 USD/EUR in total. 10 years, if one updates regullary (4x290=1160), so in total 2 060.

    So it is 340 USD/EUR cheaper and at the and one has licences forever. Or may sell them for aprox 700, so one spends 1040 USD/EUR less. At the end person on subscription pay the double the one, who buys at Sales, pays.....

    Put away that subscription would hardly be only 20 USD.... It would be closer to 30 USD/EUR than to 20... Eventide has subscribtion for their Bundle for 30....

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,320 Expert
    edited May 2023
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    I really hope you are right.

    I understand your reasoning. But please don’t try to prove your point with false affirmations: the market price? No other company offers the amount of products that are in Komplete Collectors for 20 a month

    If I’m wrong and it will be 20 a month, I will be happy for all the people interested in subscriptions. I will not be in any case, because as I said my problem is with the lose of everything once I stop subscribing.

    The only way I would be interested would be rent to own or a “subscription” in the Loopy Pro style: you buy the app and 1 year of upgrades, then after a year if you are interested you pay for one more year of updates. If you are not, you keep what you already got. In the end this is how DAWs pricing strategy always worked: you buy Studio One 5 and you have updates for 1 or 2 years. Then when they will put out a revamped version with innovations and really interesting new features, they call it Studio One 6 and if you are interested, you can pay to update to it. If you are not, you continue working with your Studio One 5. Same for Ableton, Cubase,…

    THIS is what makes them put efforts in innovating and offer new useful features. They have to convince you.

    And this is also how NI was working. They put new features in Maschine, call it Maschine 2 and asked (rightfully) to pay for the work they did. The problem is that now they are not putting this work anymore. 2 versions of Maschine in 14 years… If they really want to make money, they just have to do like other companies: put work on it, bring new features/innovations and make us rightfully pay for their work.

    But it seems they think the only way to make money is to put out new products (being them really something new or not), not to improve the products we already have and ask the money for their work

  • nico5
    nico5 Member Posts: 49 Helper
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    These made me laugh:

    @Monochrome : "NI software on Linux" has been discussed to death. It won't happen for obvious reasons (i.e. Linux being a niche OS on desktop for decades = not worth it for many companies to support it).

    @D-One : "Yeah, that's a dead horse right there, no point in beating it. Linux will never happen, NI can barely keep up with dealing with 2 OS's + a standalone + iOS... now imagine if one more OS is added to the mix, especially Linux which requires users to be tech-savvy and has a tiny music-making user base."

    Meanwhile 3 years ago:

    SOS Magazine: Native Instruments launch Maschine+ : "The Maschine+ achieves its ‘standalone’ status by essentially being its own computer. It’s powered by a 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU, boasts 4GB of DDR3 RAM, and runs a customised, embedded version of the Linux OS. As well as allowing it to run a wide range of NI’s acclaimed software instruments (more below), the embedded system includes WiFi connectivity, and offers some eyebrow-raising potential for expansion…"

    I often wish, someone made a Linux based platform that's optimized for music making, but remaining an open platform, not just these embedded toy computers that are notoriously underpowered.

    There are quite a few music companies, that would have the technical chops to do so, but the finances may not line up. :-(

    ---

    While I wasn't impressed with the actual release of Maschine+, that was only because the great idea was executed badly. But it does show that NI can indeed make (some of) their software run on Linux. So all this "NI can't do Linux" seems just simply false.

    If they keep improving Maschine+ or if that becomes another sad Kore type situation remains to be seen. I still don't understand why Kore was simply ditched, rather than being more smoothly evolved into Komplete Kontrol / Maschine. The Kore controller still works on my Windows 10 box. But of course that would have been more challenging.

    Sometimes NI seems to be simply lost, while at other times, they have proven to be very long term reliable. -- But then again, they aren't the only one's with that kind of problem. It's not like Apple never made a puck mouse or put the charging port of their mouse at the bottom or made a really bad laptop keyboard etc. Not to mention shiny trash cans or overheating cubes.

    ---

    But back to the main topic: DAWs on iPads / tablets:

    A touch interface is great for some things - but an interface with keys, pads, buttons, encoders and other physical controls is superior for other things. I've long thought that one or more midi controllers connected to a tablet would be the theoretically ideal mobile setup.

    However, the problem with jumping on the iPad for software makers like NI is, that they become hostage to Apple's walled garden and app store cut. And not least to what amounts to unbeatable competition from Apple themselves, since 3rd party software makers have to give some of their revenue to Apple via the app store, while Apple gets to keep all the money from Logic subscriptions.

    If Apple's draconian hold on the app store loosens, either by regulation or voluntarily, it may become more worthwhile for NI and others to port their software to the iPad, and hopefully also keep making and improving hardware controllers. But still - how do you compete with the device maker, who has early access to new hardware features and non-public features in the OS?

    I love iPads (the only time I ever stood in line for purchasing a device, was when the very first iPad was released) - but the lack of genuine competition is making them crazy expensive. And that's also a problem for 3rd party software makers, because it limits how many music makers can afford good tablets.

    Even as a long time and current Apple user, I wish there was more competition, because little by little Apple gear is becoming simply too expensive for me.

    p.s. quoting on this forum software still sucks!

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,320 Expert
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    Nice reflections.

    I don’t agree 100% with many things, but…food for thoughts

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