Where is all the new gear?

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  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,811 Expert
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    Any decent DAW works on Win 'tablet' (2in1) for years.... As well as NI HW.

  • Stevan
    Stevan Traktor Mapping Mod Posts: 1,743 mod
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    Subscription based 4.99 a month and 49 annually. Not a bad price at all for what it does.

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
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    These kinds of repetitive answers without having proved an iPad is what made me just stop discussing with you. You don't want to take Apple as standard, ok... but look at blogsphere about these news to try understand the world around you.

    Don't waste more effort with me... I'm done for personal reasons but this Logic news are the last nail in the coffin of market paradigm shift I've been announcing for more than a decade.

    It's over.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,811 Expert
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    Apple is not standard. It is just one of many computer companies. They were at the roots of several standards, as well other companies were at the roots of another standards...

    One pays thousands for plugins on Mac and than buy them again for use on iPad. Great. It might be cheaper to buy Win computer and Win tablet instead. That may be paradigm shift.

  • GoaSkin
    GoaSkin Member Posts: 30 Member
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    Any NI hardware is class compliant. That includes soundcards as well as any controller.

    The controllers including Maschine and Komplete Kontrol are USB devices which include a MIDI subdevice and a HID subdevice usable with generic MIDI and HID drivers. To explain it easier: The devices combine a MIDI controller and an HID keyboard. Some devices also include two LCD screens. If so, the devices include another USB subdevice allowing to send bulk RGB16 data to them.

    There interfaces to the hardware are neither top secret nor proprietary. But without any complex software handling them, they are stupid "MIDI-HID-Controllers" sending data if you push a button or move a knob. They are designed to interact with the Maschine or Komplete Kontrol software on your computer which handles button and knob events. The software also sends hid strings to the devices if the button illumination and the LCD content is being changed. There is nothing self-sufficient on them.

    The class-compliancy makes it possible to create your own software handling the devices which may also run on different platforms like Linux. But there is no generic software which handles HID keyboards containing an individual set of knobs and buttons in a senseful way.

    I coded my own software solution for the Komplete Kontrol S49/61/88 a few years ago which also runs on linux. The I/O functions may give you an hint how to interact with Maschine and DJ controllers if anybody has too much time to write a custom software:

    https://github.com/GoaSkin/qKontrol

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,811 Expert
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    Folks here mean Class Compliant in the meaning it does not need driver to be installed.... No, driver, no problem with different OS versions...

    And I think that some of older NI controllers are not Class Compliant.

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
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    Until iPadOS allow full DriverKit and ditches mfi (or made it optional) any single class compliant device without midi as standard will not be interfaced (the same for Akais or M+ aside Akai or NI put the proper Translator/driver inside their proposals) so will not work.

    Until today NI strategy was implement the HID inside their iOS apps with mfi policy (so audio was available for any app but "controls" only with their apps) making Z1 being useless with any other musicking app inside iDevices. Since NI drop their apps (let's hope for some kind of convergency strategy or so) none of these devices without fully midi class compliant support will work (afaik S2/4 mk2 and S2/3mk3 got full compliance or almost the mk3).

    Someone will blame Apple and it's their fault to a certain degree but it's awesome (in the bad sense) how can I connect an old Vestax VCI or Pad One or M-Audio Xsession, etc etc etc and work with any issue being dead brands products but it's impossible to use Maschine (mikro?), F1, X1, Z1, etc... even being in production. Mikro not being compatible with iMaschine shown us how fragmented were the internal NI development teams providing different near to opposite proposals. Old forum was plenty of complaints and new forum has some new too.

    Also it was suggested to NI devs to implement an external box to give compliance to these "old" (but well designed) gear and avoid this "issue" alongside putting some "green label" to the brand for that little effort. M+ did it allowing Jam support but it will be amazing to see something like that.

    Even I give these ideas to Rebellion developer but this should be made/support but NI itself to get future. (click the hyperlink for details)

    Standalone "receptor" based in something like Numark Dashboard (or just cutting M+ from the knobs to the bottom) could had been amazing product...



    Even with less "audio" options and just a Hub where connect your actual NI (or different) audio interface...

    but due how AS transition hit M+ I still believe iPad should be that "brain" or even just an old mac mini. Apple maybe glue both OSs but even so it could be a great platform for enhancements (like Roland did with MV1 and Zenbeats) but NI lost that train and it doesn't seems it will get it again in the future.


    Examples (one more time)


    And I know about Surfaces and blablah... isn't the same and if you tried you will known.

    Apple could be merging or not... the tools for make all of this possible from any point into the other had been placed since long ago to allow developers adapt their UI to the host device but we are still starting to see that happen. Logic Pro for iPad (among Final Cut and probably Xcode or similar soon) are pointing where the future is going.

    NI could do a lot of things and could had been in thr avantgarde one more time but it doesn't seems so (probably due SoundWide management). They had all the necessary with Traktor Dj2 app and I hope these assets were recycled but as time goes I think they were ditched at all...


    My latest 2c for this discussion. I'm considering leaving definitely music making soon (personal reasons) but if I return to music in the future I'm very convinced it will not be with NI gear, almost not with actual portfolio. It's outdated and abandoned.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,811 Expert
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    NI knows how much their SW runs on Surface and like computers. As well they know how much have run on iPad in past. That is sound base for decision, what move to do....

    And you are right, MS Surface is not anything like iPad. Traktor, Cubase, Maschine, runs on it for years. And all plugins that run on Win as well. The same with HW for Win. And there are not any artificial OS obstacles like on iPad.

    Probably not many folks use Surface for Traktor. When I searched almost year ago, I found nothing. And my question at NI forum was without response....

    But yes, it runs Traktor just fine and it is great for playlist preparation.

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,311 Expert
    edited May 2023
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    What you say isn’t completely correct. Try to use a Maschine in midi mode without passing through a computer. Not possible, because it needs drivers to be installed. A class compliant device works without any driver (which doesn’t mean that on a computer it COULD also have drivers, to make it behave in a specific way), therefore it can be used on devices like iPads or others where you can’t install them. KK keyboards? No problems. But HWs like Maschines, F1, D2 or many others need a computer to be put in midi mode. They don’t even get recognized otherwise

    And we are not talking about older or newer products here: Maschine mk3 doesn’t work, Maschine+ doesn’t work, Mikro mk3 doesn’t work…but KK mk1 do work, and it’s older

    I don’t think this is about fragmented development. I just think NI is still of the idea allowing their controller to be used with devices like iPads would affect their incomes. On some things NI way of thinking is very outdated. Well…on MANY things… Instead of thinking “hey…I could sell my hws also to people using other stuffs” they still think “I just want them to use MY stuff”. That’s their own right, but in my opinion THIS is how they are affecting their incomes…

  • GoaSkin
    GoaSkin Member Posts: 30 Member
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    You don't need a driver to communicate with a Maschine MK3 under Linux. The device is claimed by the generic USB HID driver and can be accessed using the libhidapi if you want to write your own open source software to access the device.

    The point is not the driver. The point is that nobody wrote an usable custom software to use Maschine MK3 under linux but experimental and rudimentary ones exist and some development was also discussed on this forum some time ago. The USB device is almost the same on any NI device with the two LCD displays on it: MIDI subdevice, HID subdevice, RGB16-data-subdevice where HID-messages are also used to setup the MIDI behavior.

    The original software by NI only installs a driver under Windows but the only reason is that an HID driver isn't part of Windows. Under Linux and macOS, it is...

    The device may also be recognized by Android devices and being claimed by the USB HID driver, but as long as there is no app - useless.

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
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    General info

    Rebellion is an ongoing project which lets you use Native Instruments devices (such as a Maschine MK3 or the Komplete Kontrol MK2 keyboards) outside the Komplete Kontrol or Maschine software. Of course it is currently possible without Rebellion to access some of the functions via MIDI without any additional software but that's limited.

    Rebellion tries to break these limitations by adopting a proprietary IPC protocol which is used by Native Instruments itself when passing data between the Maschine and Komplete Kontrol software to NIHA/NIHIA (the Native Instruments Hardware Agent/Native Instruments Host Integration Agent "services").

    Other existing solutions are using the MIDI API or stop NIHA/NIHIA to access the devices directly via USB - but when NIHA/NIHIA are stopped, the Native Instruments software ecosystem can't be used anymore.

    Rebellion tries to masquerades itself as Maschine2 or Komplete Kontrol software instance by connecting to NIHA/NIHIA and takes over the supported device(s).

    But then again the issue is that very few NI controllers have full midi class compliance without requiring a dedicated driver to talk that NIHA/NIHIA which manages most of the functions (AFAI understand...) when not directly require midi mode activation from the NI software (some traktor devices are even class compliant with key combo startup but others only work with, now deprecated, NI iPad apps)

    So it's not the software (dj app or drumpad app...) but the translator between NIHA/NIHIA and plain simple MIDI supported by most of regular midi class compliant devices (let's say even old vestax vci talk) that made these plugnplay meanwhile NI hardware has usually an extra layer... isn't it?

    Please point my flaws so I can understand better the issue because I feel we are all talking the same but are the details what made us not be totally agree... could it be?


    Thanks @GoaSkin !

  • GoaSkin
    GoaSkin Member Posts: 30 Member
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    NIHA and NIHIA are system services installed by NI. These services don't act as a driver but provide a middleware which is used by the NI software. These services provide a virtual MIDI device providing simplified I/O functions and translate them into a more complex HID messages and also render the pixel graphics send to the LCD displays. On macOS, there isn't any dedicated driver installed beside these services because macOS includes any required driver. On windows, an HID driver is being installed but this is just because an HID driver isn't included on windows. On Linux, there is no way to run NIHA and NIHIA because these services don't run with emulators but the device itself is recognized by standard drivers. Therefore, it is possible to make use of the device as long as you implement your own alternative to these services in your code but not to use them. Writing software for the NI hardware is a bit more work but not that difficult.

    Any hardware requires a driver even if it is class-compliant. Class-compliant just means that a generic driver for a specific type of hardware is able to handle the device. But a device also needs a suitable software to make use of it. While the "MIDI part" of these USB device can be used with any DAW or virtual instrument supporting MIDI because the purpose of MIDI is clear, that is different to the HID part.

    HID is a standard protocol to handle special keyboard devices. Beside the NI devices, gamer keyboards, DJ controllers and other equipment to control software are HID devices. Using the HID protocol, the computer sends messages to the keyboard to setup button backlights and other LEDs and also to configure what messages the devices shall sent when pushing a specific button or turning a specific knob. And the devices theirselves send HID messages anytime a button is pushed and so on; not very different to MIDI.

    But because any HID keyboard contains an individual set of knobs and buttons, individual lights and individual label because it is designed to control a specific software, they don't fulfill a generic purpose even if the drivers and the protocols are standardized. In case of NI, this is Traktor, Komplete Kontrol and the Maschine software. Theoretically, you may use the Maschine to play computer games by using mislabelled buttons to fire and so on and also a game controller to make music but because this is senseless and would confuse any user, inappropriate devices usually aren't listed.

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
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    I see but then why Novation Launchpad or Akai Apc40 can react to light rgb commands at iPads?

    These just use class compliant midi without any extra services…


    Why NI can’t implement the same for their controllers? It has some starting to like S2mk3 AFAIK…




    Yesterday I was dreaming that I was using 2 F1 with my iPad (not kidding, mind has misterious process…)

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
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    Also by your description @GoaSkin it seems possible into my eyes that DriverKit will made these services possible at iPads someday (or almost a generic alternative to mfi program)


    https://mfi.apple.com/content/mfi/en/home

    The automatic link generation seems failing to this too (@LostInFoundation @Kaiwan_NI )

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,305 Guru
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    Smart developers will implement DriverKit and AUv3 in their products as quickly as possible.

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