Waiting for Maschine MK4, Maschine Studio MK2, or Komplete Kontrol MK3
Comments
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From D-One:
"Again, MIDI 2.0 is a software feature, not hardware.... it's just a new driver that could be used with the current gen, just like it can on any current computer/interface..."
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No. No! I suggest that in your rush to say "no", you are not fully thinking THROUGH MIDI 2.0. MIDI 2.0 will bring an order of magnitude MORE GRANULARITY to musicmaking. Sure, maybe you could implement it with older hardware with just a driver update.
Maybe that's fine for knobs, if they are "endless" encoders. But maybe not for faders and touch strips. Or playable buttons or keyboard keys. And maybe not for anything with older touch screens or older display resolutions.
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As an example, velocity range goes...
from this: 0 to 127, with the midpoint being 63.
To this: 0 to 65,536, with the midpoint being 32,768.
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That's a wonderful range! But (and there's always a but)...
The current MIDI standard was launched in 1983. Ronald Reagan was President, Star Wars VI was out, but everybody called it "Star Wars III". "Tootsie" was the closest competitor, and it would be another year before Miami Vice would show up on televisions, another 2 years before the first Top Gun movie would come out, and another 5 before the world would see Captain Picard and his Star Trek: The Next Generation ship and crew.
Sure, we've all read the articles on how MIDI 2.0 will "remain compatible" with MIDI 1.0. "Remain compatible" is what you say when you want to calm down your boss's nervousness with some new software, lol!
Look again at JUST the velocity range difference in the two standards noted above. The difference is still going to be huge; kind of like painting watercolors old-school with your elbows, knees, nose, and forehead, all the way to using a full-blown selection of all sizes and shapes of painter's tools, including brushes, knives, and much more, and now having access to acrylic and oil paints.
In order to take FULL ADVANTAGE of MIDI 2.0's expanded granularity, we might need new types of physical buttons in Maschine, new keys in Komplete Kontrol (maybe with a little longer travel?), and we might need to rethink how we're doing faders in Maschine Jam (maybe with a little longer throw?).
I know, I know, I'm thinking like an engineer. But you HAVE to think about the WHOLE DEVICE, not just the software part. Not just about the display part. And not "just enough to get by".
You wouldn't slap 4K software or a 4k motherboard into an old 1080P TV monitor, keep the old panel, and call it a 4K capable monitor, right? The panel is the part that the HUMAN interfaces with; in this case, the eye. Well, with MIDI controllers, its the knobs, buttons, and keys are what the HUMAN interfaces with.
I think a lot more needs to be considered, and here we are at the dawn of a whole new technology with MIDI 2.0. I say we shouldn't do this halfway. Let's do it right. For the music! 😀
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You are thinking much more along the lines that I am. There are going to be millions of reasons for raising the game of the controllers we use, including the encoders. What a great time to be alive!
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No. No! I suggest that in your rush to say "no", you are not fully thinking THROUGH MIDI 2.0. MIDI 2.0 will bring an order of magnitude MORE GRANULARITY to musicmaking.
Sure, maybe you could implement it with older hardware with just a driver update.
Maybe that's fine for knobs, if they are "endless" encoders. But maybe not for faders and touch strips. Or playable buttons or keyboard keys. And maybe not for anything with older touch screens or older display resolutions.
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As an example, velocity range goes...
from this: 0 to 127, with the midpoint being 63.
To this: 0 to 65,536, with the midpoint being 32,768.
Even if a knob is not endless 0-127 is not a limitation of a hardware potentiometer, a pot range is generally 0-5V and that electrical signal is converted by software to 0 to 127 velocities, basically, the software says "hey divide/split the 0-5V into 0-127 and send that as MIDI", that's the firmware/sw job. The same applies to touch stips, faders, etc...
If the above wasn't the case someone making a MIDI device would have to buy/source MIDI specific Pots/faders/etc but there is no such thing because it is the software that defines what they do and what ranges to use, in this case, the MIDI Spec. So, afaik any MIDI 1.0 part can work with MIDI 2.0 if you update the software/firmware.
I know all this because I've built custom MIDI controllers, I am by no means an electrical expert so I might be saying something slightly off here and there but this is all verifiable.
The numbers you are talking about are due to 8-Bit VS 32-Bit resolution, 8 Bit pots can actually do 0 through 255 if they wanted that back when they made MIDI-1 or whatever other value, but they chose the 127 range.
A MIDI 1.0 Pitch Wheel for example has a 14-Bit resolution and pitch wheels are nothing but a normal potentiometer with some physical springs to push it back to the middle position when you let go of it.
As for screens I have no idea why you would even mention that, those are also software controlled and can display whatever you like.
In order to take FULL ADVANTAGE of MIDI 2.0's expanded granularity, we might need new types of physical buttons in Maschine, new keys in Komplete Kontrol (maybe with a little longer travel?), and we might need to rethink how we're doing faders in Maschine Jam (maybe with a little longer throw?).
We don't, over what was said above.
But if you thinking of the full 32-bit range for example on a knob then it would make more sense to use ridiculously physically large knobs since the resolution is just so insanely high, but that would make devices also awkward to use.
Not sure how they plan on handling that as I stopped paying attention to the MIDI 2.0 spec newsletter as it's been going on for ages and their focus is mostly on device intercommunication and ****** I don't care about related to real hw synths/instruments.
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I'm wondering what would make sense from NI's business perspective to add in one of these hypothetical devices.
Like, what would make both existing KK MK2 owners interested enough to justify an upgrade?
One route might be a combo with Maschine pads as a standalone device. That could make NI more competetive towards Akai. But it seems tailored more towards DAW-less crowd.
Touchscreen which does not replace but enhance current workflow could be nice, but still that doesn't seem to be enough.
Perhaps it's the integration of smart functions into the keyboard itself + browser and mapping support for Kontakt that would render Komplete Kontrol plugin obsolete?
For Maschine, besides aforementioned touchscreen support I don't see anything that would justify an upgrade. Many seem to agree that the device itself is almost perfect in its workflow (not always in its execution), so I don't see NI trying to revolutionize that.
Maybe if a supposed MK4 would encapsulate scale and note repeat functions inside the device so it could act as a smart midi device outside of Maschine software then that would make a better sell.
Musings aside, I don't think I'd upgrade anytime soon either way, because while imperfect, the current generation seems sufficient to me as it is, hardware-wise at least.
I would like to see more software updates anyway.
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Like, what would make both existing KK MK2 owners interested enough to justify an upgrade?
Perhaps it's the integration of smart functions into the keyboard itself + browser and mapping support for Kontakt that would render Komplete Kontrol plugin obsolete?
That's the big question, oddly for many users it doesn't matter, as long as it's new and marginally better it's OK. I guess it's the excitement of something new? Maybe the smartphone industry's fast HW release cycle that happens every other year with marginal gains has normalized this approach for the general public and people expect it from other industries. For me, this is a terrible approach as the more stuff you release the faster obsolescence will happen / support is dropped. Maintaining a gigantic catalog is a nightmare even for huge companies.
The reasons you mentioned are pretty legit, smart play without a SW / plugin wrapper sounds really nice but the idea of Kontakt and KK merging seems like a very, very distant possibility. Other things could be poly aftertouch, MPE somehow, and stand-alone.
One route might be a combo with Maschine pads as a standalone device. That could make NI more competetive towards Akai. But it seems tailored more towards DAW-less crowd.
Is it? Or is it for the live keyboard player crowd? I legit don't know for "who" a product like that is for in this era, huge "Master Keyboards" that do it all seem like a thing of the past for the most part, especially in the more humble bedroom home studio of today which is by far the biggest market.
MPC Keys did make a bit of noise on release but I don't see anyone using one, or a lot of NI users asking for something similar, it seems to me like it failed badly but it might just be my biased impression.
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MK3 hardware is so well designed it seems future proof for some time yet ... such a cool piece of kit ... NI got this right
hoping Maschine 3.0 software is equally inspiring
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I hope for MK3 that infamous add-on unit converting Mk3 into Studio MK2, that D-One has "designed". :-)
Then Maschine Jam MK2.
Would like hammer bed MK3 keyboard with less keys than 88 and no displays, just few really necesary buttons.... Something easier to transport than bulky and heavy S88.
I guess, none of that will not happen either any time soon, or ever....
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Seventy-three keys, yessiree please.
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In my opinion NI should be brave enough to make something like Ableton just did with Push 3.
I mean…yes…the price is high…but damn it they really tried to make everything in the right way.
Ableton Live without limitations (or almost without).
A serious processor (ok…just i3…not the top of the top…but at least is not Atom…). And it’s even updatable! Who else is making an HW instrument with a full computer inside that you can open to update parts?
And then you have the battery built inside.
The adat in and out to expand the audio interface.
The MPE pads…
You can even buy it as just a controller and only later upgrade it as standalone…
For once, I think these guys are right to ask the price they are asking for it
Native Instruments: WE INSPIRE CREATORS TO SHAPE THE FUTURE OF MUSIC
Well…I hope they didn’t copyrighted this slogan, because at the moment this title goes to Ableton
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Late to the thread but the recent Ableton developments triggered some of it ;)
There's one major flaw in arguments like these: they all assume that newer will always be better and quite frankly I think that's a very dangerous assumption to make, especially in these days. It's not always the case.
Take Push 3 as an example... it's most definitely a very impressive controller, absolutely no arguments from me on that regard. But... take away the stand-alone options and all that's left in comparison to Push 2 are its MPE features.
So if you're a Push 1 user who's not interested in those features then... you're now looking at an even more expensive Push than the previous one! ... though Push 2 prices are bound to drop of course, so there's that.
Sometimes I really wonder whatever happened to trying to get the most out of your setup... back in the day of the APC40 I actually managed to make it work as a drumpad using Max for Live. Not all that much useful because the buttons are hard to push, but even so...
Sure, the Maschine Mk3 has its flaws and it's far from perfect. No arguments. But I think it's a bit silly to deny yourself all its features because you're hoping for something "better" to come. And while you're out there hoping for the best, I'm having fun making some sick beats and backgrounds.
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You are not wrong about newer vs older. I’m all about being faithful to good older products and not needing to buy newer ones (even the Earth health would benefit of this). My problem is when the older that we love more get forgotten and not improved with things that could make it shine even more. It’s NI that seems more of the advice that what they sold us just 2 years ago must look like outdated so we will buy something new from them…
I would NEVER change my Maschines, because this is the type of workflow I love and that fits with me. But seeing how many things could be improved (with even easy things to add) and how little interest they have in doing it is quite frustrating.
What made me think (about Push 3) that these guys really want to build on it is all the features they put in it that point to “we want to expand and improve this thing at its best”. One over all the fact that it can be opened to upgrade its components in case in future we/they will need more.
This is something NI doesn’t seem to be interested into at all. Quite the opposite: NI moves point more to the “now we give you this cool thing, but we want you to need something else from us in the (very near) future, not to improve what we already gave you (and you paid for)”.
And in my opinion Ableton has been very clever. It’s not that giving customers future proof HW will make them earn less money. Au contraire…they are paving the road to sell us new components in the future without having to develop a brand new thing. And giving a very performing HW with tight projects export to their desktop software, they will probably increase the number of Ableton Live users. This is smart thinking
And about Push 3 not being such a big novelty (you say it’s practically only the MPE): in my opinion, even only putting a sound card in it is a big step, as it has been for NI when they moved from Maschine MK2 to MK3. For me it wasn’t too much about the big colored screens or the new 4d encoder or the better pads…the big step was about “hey…now I can take only my MK3 and my Surface around and that’s all I need”. All the other things were in any case more than welcome.
Of course if you say “Push 3 without its standalone functionality, without its MPE pads, without the audio interface, without its upgradability is not much more than Push 2” you are right, but it’s not little things that you are neglecting…
Even a car without its engine is just a chariot, but that engine is what made humanity go faster (and gave some rest to the poor horses 😂)
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Wow wow wow, so Ableton slyly slips in the Push 3 while I was cleaning my bathrooms. Sheesh, turn your head away for a minute and they change the world!
So I just now spent less than 5 minutes looking at it. I like the idea of being able to buy a Push 3 and later upgrading it to the standalone. But I don't like the standalone's only CPU option being an i3. Add a few reverbs and some delays to your song, and you'll make that i3 have a bad day. Should probably have an i5 option too. At least it's not older than 11th gen.
The reason I didn't want to mess with Maschine + is because I'm under the impression that I'd have to use the Maschine's audio and midi interface even when plugged into a computer that has a UAD or other nice interface. Maybe I'm wrong on that. But then the $1200+ price I've seen it for is a bit rich for my budget at this time.
Likewise, Push 3 is a budget buster too, even if you just get the "standard" $1000 version (not standalone). Going to make my Push 2 go farther, I think.
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Well, the question was not for me, but I have:
Maschine MK3
KK S61 MK2
KK M32
KA6 MK2
TRAKTOR Z1 MK2
TRAKTOR X1
TRAKTOR AUDIO 2 MK2
So, yes, I'm a NI fan for sure hahaha
For now, I'd like a new KK controllers, then maybe a new Maschine
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Maybe the smartphone industry's fast HW release cycle that happens every other year with marginal gains has normalized this approach for the general public and people expect it from other industries. For me, this is a terrible approach as the more stuff you release the faster obsolescence will happen / support is dropped. Maintaining a gigantic catalog is a nightmare even for huge companies.
Spot on. It is way too easy for me to downplay the market behaviors that affect the decision-making of product development. Sadly this is a likely scenario. On the flip-side this is making some people more immune to hype, hopefully it helps them move away from the cycle to produce more music instead. Of course there's joy in playing with a new toy - but for me it needs to scratch a different itch than a marginal update can provide.
the idea of Kontakt and KK merging seems like a very, very distant possibility
If it weren't for the recent Kontakt browser update I would think so myself. This at least makes me believe they could have that on the roadmap even if it's years ahead. I suppose the NI engineers would prefer to have fewer platforms to support too. Also the slow pace of development kind of imply a lot of tech debt is involved and it is super expensive for the businesses. Though it seems common for companies not to want to poke a possible house of cards.
Other things could be poly aftertouch, MPE somehow, and stand-alone.
Indeed, there are many more possible selling points than I thought. The question is whether it's more profitable to release software or hardware updates?
"One route might be a combo with Maschine pads as a standalone device. That could make NI more competetive towards Akai. But it seems tailored more towards DAW-less crowd."
Is it? Or is it for the live keyboard player crowd? I legit don't know for "who" a product like that is for in this era, huge "Master Keyboards" that do it all seem like a thing of the past for the most part, especially in the more humble bedroom home studio of today which is by far the biggest market.
MPC Keys did make a bit of noise on release but I don't see anyone using one, or a lot of NI users asking for something similar, it seems to me like it failed badly but it might just be my biased impression.
Oh right, this could sure make a great live gear for some. I wouldn't use such "Master Keyboard" version either. To me KK is a production device / plugin mapper only as I have had too many instances of losing work either due to volatility of software, hardware or my own plain forgetfulness. I strive to ensure I am always recording when jamming with backups and frequent saves. Never bothered to check if MPC offers that luxury. Fortunately PCs/Macs + DAWs + VST plugins do.
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@defyosef said:
Indeed, there are many more possible selling points than I thought. The question is whether it's more profitable to release software or hardware updates?
Definitely software, generally HW has low-profit margins, it's more about getting the user into the ecosystem and having them spend $$ on Komplete and whatnot... NI's main money maker is Kontakt, both selling their own stuff and licensing it to others, check the prices other companies pay. I don't think I am allowed to say the numbers but Kontakt should have at least 3x more active users than whatever is their #2 most popular product.
haha.. That idea and others I shared are pretty much what Ableton did with Push-3, assuming it supports its API scripts, you can just add on controllers to do different things and have a lvl of control that is way beyond simple midi mapping.
The nice thing is, there's documentation out there for the scripts, any dev can make fancy controllers if they wish, python is a very common language.
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