Kontrol S-Series MK3 - Feeling like a beta tester. :(

Jezric · 2023-10-21T22:42:34+00:00

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My S61 mk3 just arrived and I have to say, I am very disappointed. Not because of the quality of the hardware, it feels fantastic. It's that the software integration feels like it's half-baked at best.

Switching focus between multiple instances of KK or Kontakt does not attach the controller to that instance, you have to re-choose the controller on Kontakt's dropdown menu or click the little 49/61/88 button in the top of the KK plugin window.
No integration with Maschine, I can kind of use Kontakt in Maschine, but can't use Komplete Kontrol and therefore can't use any of my Arturia plugins with the browser or controls. Oh, and no Play Assist features because those only work in the KK plugin.
One Default MIDI Template with no integration with your own Controller Editor software to you know, maybe create custom templates for the controls? (seems like a no brainer) I don't even see a way to change any of the CCs, you're just stuck with what it gives you in the Default MIDI Template, totally unusable.
DAW controls are limited to only the few that they list and even with those, it's half-baked in the functionality. They seem to be only focusing on Ableton (uh... your direct Maschine competitor? Is Maschine dead??) Even other DAWs that fully support Mackie Control Universal, the only controls that seem to work are transport controls and really just Play and Stop and the controller doesn't even detect that it's setup for DAW (i.e. the DAW button doesn't light up and does nothing, so no channel strip functionality).
Only way to use Play Assist is in KK. They boast about this new controller having a mini computer inside yet, they can't move this basic MIDI functionality to it so it can be used with anything? (like other hardware synths)
They use Arturia's CS80 V4 as an example for next gen NKS integration, but the control performance is SO bad that when you turn knobs on the controller it lags and does not produce smooth controlling of the parameters (PC, i9, 64gb memory, NVME M.2 SSD, should have NO problem), both Maschine mk3 and Arturia's own Keylab don't have this issue.

There is more, but that's enough for now... All of this really makes me second guess NI as a company and where they are heading (this is coming from a user that owns ALL of NI's software/plugins). In my opinion they should have figured all of this out prior to releasing this thing. I am so disappointed.

Have there been any answers to any of these questions from NI? Have they shared any solid plans for addressing these issues? I have searched around and there is very little and even in the AMA thread, it's all just asks with no answers... So really, it's an Ask Me Anything and We Won't Answer Anything. So, what's the point???

I really do see the potential here and I SO want to love it but am really bummed out every time I look at this thing right now. :(

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Matthew_NI

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/117070#Comment_117070

Microsoft rolled out the replacement driver late last year, meaning, the issue should now be resolved.

Are you still experiencing issues with the latest update from Microsoft? If so, our support team has the necessary follow-up workaround for certain edge cases to solve the issue once and for all.

(To be clear, I'm not blaming Microsoft. There was a bug in the driver on our end, we just need to work with Microsoft to validate and roll it out, and so once fixed we had to wait for their cycle to complete).

Vagus

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/122831#Comment_122831

Still have issues, but I need to return the MK3 anyway due to a small (tiny) hardware fault. Phsyically, brilliant made device. Just needs a bit more work on the UX on updated driver stuff.

Jezric

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/122828#Comment_122828

Hi Matthew, I do appreciate your presence in these discussions, it helps give some insight where there is no insight "officially". Not that I agree with Wiseguy2006 entirely, I will say that there is a big difference between an NI rep being present and providing some answers inside these HUGE forum threads and some sort of official posted statement about the decisions being made and the direction of the NI ecosystem. In all of this, that is my biggest complaint.

Also, falling back on the notion that only users with issues/problems take to the forums and then saying:

"But, we have an order of magnitude more (thousands more) users who've simply bought the new keyboard, installed and got on with using it and experienced no issues."

...is simply ignorant and borderline arrogant, and I really am saying this to be constructive and not just critical. You assume that if someone doesn't complain in a forum that there are no problems? I'm sure you do collect data from device/software usage, but I know that every single person I know turns off data collection and even with the data you do collect, you're not going to get a sense of someone's satisfaction (of course there are many subtleties here and me not knowing what data you actually collect or how you're aggregating and making insights on it, I know through first-hand experience, there are all sorts of ways to draw conclusions with varying degrees of accuracy).

Simply put, a lot of people you consider "bought the new keyboard, installed and got on with using it and experienced no issues." are likely just people that don't or won't ever take to forums or aren't trying to fully utilize the features, they just suffer silently and don't want the conflict (which seems to be a large part of the human population unfortunately).

So... Again, this comes down to communication and I mean official communication at the top level, like the statements made when advertising your products and publishing a roadmap of the overall plans for the ecosystem so that people can make an educated decision on when to buy in or when not to.

I assumed there would be speed bumps adopting the Kmk3 this early, but I think a lot of people here (me included) feel like the lack of transparency is an indication of the direction NI is going in general, which is not great... I think that's the gist of what's being said in general.

I know you work for a larger entity and don't necessarily have control over a lot of this and again, I do appreciate the insights you have given, keep it coming. :)

Beatsandmore

I was patient when I made the purchase I spend the first 2 months tweaking scanning.. trying to get my libraries to show up .. and plugins that would not scan and hang the software.. and finally I have it working well.. is it worth the price.. for myself and being lazy using a mouse yes it is.. not a bad purchase..

Vic Angelo

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/122618#Comment_122618

Sorry to hear about that, you are missing out.

Wiseguy2006

Matthew at NI - if it is truly the case that there are that many percentage points more of people who purchased the Kontrol MK3 and are happy with it then I would have to stand corrected. However, In my specific professional community, I am seeing the opposite amongst those I know personally. As you rightly mentioned, most comments online are going to be regarding "issues" in online forums so you are right, that is important to consider. If NI sees the overall picture as most people by far and wide have no problems - I just am curious as to why this seems like way more people posting issues than what is typical. Amongst my network of approx 25 composers - I unfortunately have had 7 recommendations against the new MK3 due to their experience over the past month. As for my personal experience with these colleagues, that is not typical.

BIF

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/124037#Comment_124037

I can offer some perspective on that. Basically it's a math problem; and specifically, it's a problem of percentages.

A lot of people turn off data sharing. When you do that, your usage statistics are not collected by the vendor. Microsoft has the same thing for Windows.

If you happen to be somebody who turns off data collection, your usage statistics are unknown. So if you turn it off and you make heavy use of one particular feature, the vendor won't know that YOU like that feature.

Now let's extrapolate that by an order of magnitude. If there are a LOT of people who turn off data collection and they make HEAVY USE of the same particular onscreen control or feature, then the vendor will not see that aggregated preference of the people.

This might be rare. Or it might not, but if the REMAINING users (the ones with data collection turned on) happen to not use that feature, then the reality becomes skewed from the stats.

And the vendor, NI in this case, starts to make future product decisions based on that information. Features get enhanced or dropped based on what the usage reports show or don't show.

I get it; a lot of people don't want snooping of any kind. But it's like voting; if you don't participate, you may be ceding control to those who do participate. Your preferences never get counted, and if a significant percentage of other users who also disable data collection happen to have the same preferences as you, then you all could be missing out.

A vendor can and should seek other inputs before making product and feature lifecycle decisions, but that can be super challenging, and might even yield ostensible preferences that are not actionable for some reason or another...which would end up being a waste of time and money.

This is why I'm leaving my data collection on, at least for the time being.

Kymeia

It’s probably the power users who tend to know where to find the option to turn that off, the same ones who probably are using the more advanced features. So that also skews the stats.

But regardless; this sort of misuse of statistics is a poor way to identify software priorities and features. Comparatively few people are Reaktor builders, probably more do light editing, but I bet the majority of Reaktor owners don’t even open up the edit pane, but that would be a poor justification for removing such a central aspect of Reaktor (that’s what Player is for). Those few people however create ensembles many people use so removing a feature that is only used by a few impacts negatively on the whole community.

BIF

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/124100#Comment_124100

Yes, all good points. That's why feature decisions, product decisions, and more all need to have multiple inputs.

And those inputs need to be understood well enough to be properly linked. For example, 1% of users edit NKS. Maybe that number includes a dozen Jester McGees and a half-dozen Kymeias.

Now, 45% of users use the products produced by the Jester McGees and/or the Kymeias.

Well if you don't understand the AGGREGATE of the data you're looking at, you'd know better than to get rid of that feature that only 1% of us use directly.

And some of that information is only going to be learned if you TALK TO YOUR CUSTOMERS.

Now maybe NI talks to its beta team members. But I'll bet a lot of them won't be power users; they'll be people who run studios and don't dawdle around with features so much. They need to make tracks, and sometimes it's just best to knock that part out by hand rather than try to automate it or perfect its EFX settings.

So more talking with the users. The NI people lately have been doing a good job with that, but it's kind of too late for the KK 3 launch.

My mom used to tell my dad whenever her car was making a noise. Dad worked in loud factory type places for his whole adult life, so by the time he got to his 40s, he couldn't hear those subtle car noises anymore. "It sounds good to me." Then they would both look at me.

Before I started working on my own cars, I'd respond, "well it sounds like two blocks of rubber rubbing against each other" or "it sounds like a low squeal with an intermittent dog barking." Hahaha, I might as well have said the sound was "dark" or "bright"! 🤣

But after a few years of being my own car owner and fixing or paying for things to be fixed, I got a lot better at describing things. "Yeah, it's a bad lifter, dad" or "it sounds like a bad wheel bearing". When you can talk to a knowledgeable person familiar with the UI, you have a better chance of getting it right the first time. There's no sense is changing out the engine mounts when the problem is really just a bad U-Joint or a loose accessory drive belt!

LostInFoundation

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/124106#Comment_124106

Very appropriate example the last one.

I would add a couple of things.

First one is on the same page as Kymeia observation about removing functionalities (but on a larger scale and even more obvious). Let’s not even talk about NKS or Reaktor: the whole Kontakt. How many users use it to create their own instrument? I bet a really, really low percentage. The vaste majority buy instruments from professional companies and use Kontakt just to open them. Does this mean they should completely remove the sampler part of it? And then who is even gonna create the instruments that bring to users even using Kontakt? NI knows that and therefore Kontakt keeps its sampler editing functionalities.

Second one is about insisting on “only unsatisfied users post on the forum. The happy ones (vaste majority they say) just use the keyboard”. Well…usually unsatisfied post on forums, while happy users publish reviews and videos of them using the gear on YouTube.

I don’t see many videos of MK3 on YouTube, except from the ones made at release by “influencers” that received the keyboard exactly for having a sort of promotion from their “100% my honest opinion”reviews.

Imo the categories are 3, not 2: unsatisfied (forums), happy users (YouTube) AND people “yeah…I spent all that money…let’s use it as it is”. Of course the “data reading” of this 3rd category can be included in “happy users”, if needed.

BIF

Also all good points. I do have faith that we WILL get to a workable point with the MK3 and KK3, where our creators will be able to use their power tools once again; and even more effectively than before. It does feel to me that NI "gets it".

But we all probably should stay on them and keep holding their feet to the fire.

NO company is completely immune to competition. The Steinberg Halion people, along with the MUSE people and the Falcon people would like nothing more than to eat Native Instruments' lunch in this space. And I think NI knows this.

So we'll see how it goes as the year unfolds. In the meantime, if your car guy tells you that your ride needs a new Frammitz Valve or a Disgronifier Actuator, always get a second opinion, or at least Google them before you give a green light! Those things don't exist, well not in gasoline or diesel vehicles anyway! I can't say one way or another with all that EV voodoo! 😉

Zoopy604

Well I can throw my hat into the ring as a new owner of a s49 mk3, a NI veteran and a 'power-user'.

My experience has been absolutely awful and this might be the buggiest and most over-priced, disappointing piece of hardware I've purchased in 20 years of music production.

I've been pokin around the web for a few days now after purchasing it, seeing lots of issues I'm having posted about months ago with promises to be fixed, I'm getting hard crashes in multiple daws, very repeatable. I dunno, I don't have patience for it anymore. I've watched NI decline over the years and it bums me out, I was skeptical purchasing this thing and it just doesn't feel like the quality is there anymore.

Love the idea, took a gamble, will be returning the product as soon as the snowpocalypse is over and returning to my beloved Novation Sl49 mk3, which I'm sure will someday have some sort of user created open source script to do everything I wanted the s49 to be.

Firewave

battery isn't working for Logic Pro x

Jeremy_NI

@Firewave How is this related to this thread? It might be better to create a dedicated post to your issue, maybe in the Battery section? And with more info if possible, so people can help out.

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