Will Kontakt8 see a return of the Wrench Icon for editing/scripting, Yes or No? Please tell us.

Shanald

The Wrench Icon! As a maker of microtonal music the wrench icon was the sole reason I upgraded to Kontakt years ago. Now, without 'the wrench icon' there is no ability to do microtonal music or abnormal tunings.

As of K7 it seems to be rare for an instrument have 'the wrench' anymore.Thankfully I recently realized the old 'Kontakt Factory Library' still allows editing/scripting/microtonality/notes per octave etc. / / / but not the new one', "Kontakt Factory Library 2'. Even for the EXACT SAME instruments contained in both versions.

At this point I won't be upgrading until assured the scripting features will remain.

As far as the new features to assist in composing/music theory/chords/sequencing etc., . . . I don't need anything like that.

Monochrome

It's been kinda discussed to death at this point, but… to reiterate again: If a wrench icon is shown or not depends entirely on a library. Not Kontakt 7. A library has to be editable.

The Kontakt Factory Library 2 (as well as several other libraries) uses a new GUI framework that is not yet open to the public. Hence why you can't use Edit Mode on it.

As for Kontakt 8, it's a whole new beast with a completely different GUI. I'm sure scripting features are still there, but then again…

mykejb

K8 does have the wrench icon available if the library allows it, the same as in K7. For example, the patch "Chrystal" has the wrench if you load if from the original Kontakt factory library. If you load it from the new factory library it has the new interface but the wrench isn't present.

Shanald

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/179125#Comment_179125

The "Edit Mode" is/was the only reason to upgrade from the free version.

Yes I see the wrench icon been 'talked to death' over two years ago , and yet still no answers are being provided about when/if editing/scripting will return.

stephen24

Don't hold your breath. My own approach is to look at the Walkthrough video. If there's no spanner, I don't buy it.

And if you believe this gobbledegook about a new secret GUI SDK you'll believe anything.

Monochrome

@stephen24 "And if you believe this gobbledegook about a new secret GUI SDK you'll believe anything."

Well, it was "secret" for a while 😉

From the Kontakt 8 Manual:

Komplete UI: With the release of Kontakt 8 we are introducing a new framework to build high-DPI interfaces, called Komplete UI. It features a new language, called Komplete Script, and enables instrument builders to efficiently create instruments that not only sound but also look beautiful. For more information refer to Komplete UI docs.

Docs can be found here:

https://developer.native-instruments.com/komplete-ui

stephen24

How terribly exciting.

But I'm a bear of very little brain. This has been given as the reason for locking Factory Library 2 to editing, i.e. losing the spanner. Can anyone explain? (Preferably without gobbledegook.)

Kymeia

I don't think K8 is any better, or worse, in relation to the wrench/edit mode availability, this seems to be based on the library in question. However there is certainly a trend for more recent libraries to be locked, probably in large part due to the complexity of libraries using the new Kontakt "Komplete UI' interface tools.

This suggests to me NI need to take some more stuff out of the edit pages and put it into the hands of all users regardless of which library is being used. If there was micro tuning and scripting available across the board, maybe as tools in addition to Chords and Phrases, then I wonder if most of us who are not power users would even need to go into the wrench edit area even if it was more available?

stephen24

take some more stuff out of the edit pages and put it into the hands of all users

For me that would be a poor compromise. Even instruments from the best libraries often need a tweak, duff individual samples, poorly programmed balance, randomising samplestart - the list is endless. And there has to b a pretty good reason for preventing you from using software that you actually own.

If you're interested I have devised a multiscript which can give you microtuning via the tune knob in the instrument header of a locked instrument. The knob is automated with cc#100, with the range (in the automation tab bottom window) set to 49.5-50.3, derived empirically. This example gives the Pure temperament in the key of E (declared $key = 4)

on init

 declare %ccval[12] :=(80,15,88,115,49,75,60,84,111,45,119,54)

 declare $key :=4

end on
on midi_in

 if ($MIDI_COMMAND = $MIDI_COMMAND_NOTE_ON)

  set_midi ($MIDI_CHANNEL, $MIDI_COMMAND_CC, 100, %ccval [($MIDI_BYTE_1-$key) mod 12])

 end if
end on

note: this stupid website puts arbitrary spaces between lines in the code format

Kymeia

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/179936#Comment_179936

Fair enough, I agree, the same is often true of Reaktor ensembles, but even so I bet many users don't even touch the wrench icon but would be pleased to have more accessible tools. Anyway there is no reason why we can't have both options :) I would certainly welcome some more tools in addition to Chords and Phrases and clearly they intend them to be added to (I hope not as paid for addons), I think micro tuning and scripting would be logical additions.

ChrisV

Indeed - for the loyalty of the microtonal community the built in alternate tuning options that were there from my first Kontakt (v2) through v6 ought to be there. As noted above, for many people the only reason to buy Kontakt was that it handles alternate tunings superbly - I've played 106 notes per octave on my Linnstrument with the factory strings and it can be stunning - People who bought v7 thinking that it would do the same were bitter on the facebook microtonal communities. I have no reason to upgrade when the most important function I bought it for is gone. I still have v6 installed. I bought v7 and found the interface difficult. I'm not upgrading until the microtonal support returns.

I used to think Native Instruments was so enlightened to have built in quartertone, adaptive just intonation, freely adjustable notes per octave that treated the sample library correctly (unlike Garritan)

Its just sad to see this regression as microtonal music is becoming more mainstream (I.E. King Gizzard, etc.)

Its absurd to play the instruments of a non-12 equal cultural tradition in 12 equal.

Shanald

This is a great discussion for NI to see. The microtonal users may not be the majority, but NI has been one of our very few high-quality options for creating music.

Even a carve out (without scripting) for easy access to "Notes per Octave" or "Cents/Semitone" would be amazing. The current K7 UI requires the wrench to be available to access those features.

For now, we're stuck scripting the same old old library sounds from the default patches that came with the 'free version' years ago.

I'm still going to wait for see some YouTube walk throughs to confirm if/how scripting will exist in the new version.

I do appreciate the feedback in the "Ask Kontakt8 Creators Anything" thread from user @Philipp_NI:

"To edit an Kontakt Instrument to modify instrument scripts, you need to navigate to classic view via the view menu. Same is the case for KSP Multi Scripts which are currently only accessible within classic view.

On future updates we aim to bring more features into the new kontakt experience. It's not unlikely that we will revisit also the question how to improve the experience to work with alternative tunings."

ZenloPark

"At this point I won't be upgrading until assured the scripting features will remain."

Same here. I'm paused at Komplete 13 Collector's Edition until/unless I see alternative tunings explicitly supported by NI.

Same thing happened to me over at VSL with VI Pro. I'm stalled out there as well … it's not a monetary issue for me, it's that I see some of these software teams effectively c*ckblocking me from utilizing my custom tunings with every new release. Maybe not intentionally … possibly it's more just apathy for alternative tunings than anything else.

I'd love to invest in the updated software, but I can't … the new software releases from these larger virtual synth companies literally prevent me from being able to create/perform my music.

As a result, I have multiple external SSDs set up with the OS version and Plug-In versions with the tuning support I require, and those never get updated or connected to the Internet.

It's a shame. For now, I'm utilizing Omnisphere, Vital, U-he (Zebra), Synthmaster, Synthogy (Ivory), and older Kontakt and VSL libraries to be able to create music with my custom tunings.

Just posting here to +1 the wish for better alternative tuning support in future releases. I did the same over at VSL when they sundowned VI Pro a few months ago. Meantime, I suppose I'll just keep channeling my $ into hardware gear. I bought a Lumatone a few years ago, and this year I'm eyeing the embodme erae2 I saw at NAMM. Would love to invest in software instead, but …

Matthew_NI

"At this point I won't be upgrading until assured the scripting features will remain."

I'm not sure I quite understand.

We haven't removed any such features per se.

As @Kymeia said:

I don't think K8 is any better, or worse, in relation to the wrench/edit mode availability, this seems to be based on the library in question.

If an Instrument Builder wants to protect their intellectual property, one of several ways they might do that is to disallow editing of their instrument. That is a decision a builder must make, rather than a decision Kontakt makes for them. Kontakt 8 is really no different from Kontakt 7 in this regard.

And of course, users remain as free as ever to create and edit their own instruments.

Now, with respect to Komplete UI, which was in beta until fairly recently, this went public with a version 1 release in mid February, so that's no longer as "hidden" as it once was. That could be one thing you're referring to, but again I'm not sure I understand (sorry).

stephen24

"At this point I won't be upgrading until assured the scripting features will remain."

I'm not sure I quite understand.

Access to instrument scripting is but one of the important faclities that are blocked when editing is locked. But I'm not sure these guys have grasped that locking is a decision of the library authors, not a feature of Kontakt.

Now, with respect to Komplete UI, which was in beta until fairly recently, this went public with a version 1 release in mid February, so that's no longer as "hidden" as it once was. That could be one thing you're referring to, but again I'm not sure I understand (sorry).

This refers to Kontakt Factory Library 2, which NI decided to lock to editing. We were told by EvilDragon, who generally knows about these things, that this was because of this new (unpublished) SDK.

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/6556/kontakt-7-editing-samples-not-possible?utm_source=community-search&utm_medium=organic-search&utm_term=Kontakt+editing+samples

If he's right, and new SDK is now public, we should now be able to have our spanner back. So how about it?

heinrichz

To disable the Edit mode makes all these instruments way less appealing to more advanced Kontakt users, indeed it actually dumbs down the whole situation to having mere macro controlled instruments without providing access and a deeper understanding of what's going on under hood. Of course many musicians just want ready to play macro controlled instruments, but It was my understanding that this limitation was meant to be for the Player instruments only originally.

As a longtime NI teacher and course designer I always used the edit mode to allow student to learn from the construction of existing instrument and then copy and paste groups from different instruments and combine them in a new instrument. This was a great first step towards creating your own from scratch,
Hard to believe that NI had to be so restrictive for publishing reasons and prevent us from having that access, when royalty free samples and loops are pretty much a standard nowadays and a lot of content can be downloaded from Splice, Loopcloud and many others.