Is KK Software less important than Maschine to NI?

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  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,305 Guru
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    As the products became merged, every KK user would "have" Maschine and vice versa.

    Essentially, all that Maschine adds is ability to program/capture and edit performances.. only "blurring" would be whether or not you wanted to do this occasionally or often. And even this Maschine added function would/should likely fade in purpose giving way to a full blown DAW in the Soundwide ecosystem.

    Maschine is at its core a fatally flawed redundant product going forward.

  • Vagus
    Vagus Member Posts: 421 Guru
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    I love NI, but they haven't responded to this thread yet - not sure why @Matt_NI can you help with visibility?

  • hi-d-ho-man
    hi-d-ho-man Member Posts: 16 Helper
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    Customers that are considering Maschine have other very formidable options. Where there is nothing quite like KK right now. Just give me some interesting use for KK’s touchstrip + instrument layering as mentioned I’d be ok

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Member Posts: 2,650 Expert
    edited April 2022
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    And going forward... How about merging KK and Maschine as one product?

    NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

    I would throw my keyboard into the river immediately if this happened!

    Maschine has a LOT of overhead when used to simply host a plugin. You need to understand (as NI do in the market they have chosen to target) that people have different ways of working. I don't use Maschine at all, I use Ableton Live and load every VST via Komplete Kontrol so I can browse and take advantage of the smart mapping of parameters to make up the awful way Ableton handles this.

    Personally, I don't need layers or splits nor do I need sequencing or effects in the chain, the DAW can do all of that, I simply need the basics and a lite on resource loader, that's it. All I want to see is some QOL improvements to what is there. It's 90% of what I need but we all know what makes a production shine is that last 10%.

    Also, many blind musicians use KK because it has all the voice guidance and accessibility functionality so adding more guff in the way that could become confusing and overwhelming would be a problem for many users out there.

    So no, merging these as one would be a failure.

    I love NI, but they haven't responded to this thread yet

    Prob becuause this exact same argument has been ongoing for decades and the same reply "We hear you and many things you have suggested are being considered.... for the future. Not immediately as there is a focus (as always) to improve compatibility between DAWs and macOS but when all that is stable (when Hell freezes over) we will be looking at implementing some of these...."

    Or any such variation, but I am always keen to be proven wrong, just not sure I have enough decades left in me to see the day.

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,305 Guru
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    It would be possible to design this merged product to be as simple and lightweight as you would like.. with a modular approach and modern code. Also.. as I said, the Maschine functions would likely wither and die over time due to their redundancy to those found in a DAW environment. As you know from your own workflow, the DAW is a much more robust environment to capture/program and edit performances.

    Maschine is a White Elephant.

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Member Posts: 2,650 Expert
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    There are still plenty of cases where Maschine fits the bill, mainly around live performance or quickly testing out ideas.

    The application is almost 2x the size and it's not just about the size of the program but how the audio and data is managed within. Maschine is optimised for multi-track audio while KK is single track. Just to run Maschine as a plugin requires probably 5x more CPU cycles to manage it and I am sure that if you add in 10 instances of Maschine with just a single plugin it would bring most machines down fast, KK is rarely an issue.

    The other issue is still effects. Many DAWS you just want to add an FX block which still is not possible to do without loading as an instrument then loading effects. Makes it unusable if you want to use native DAW plugins which is often the issue.

    I dunno, I still think merging both and trying to maintain happiness with the 10+ year Maschine community while also trying to maintain efficiency and speed with the users of KK would kind of be a nightmare.

  • Trevor Meier
    Trevor Meier Member Posts: 69 Advisor
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    I really wish the Maschine controllers could use the KK plugin. I like working in Maschine but it’s a world unto itself, and many projects require working in another DAW. Being able to take advantage of NKS without the overhead (CPU and mental) of multiple Maschine instances would be a step toward Maschine being a better ecosystem player.

  • ozon
    ozon Member Posts: 1,364 Expert
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    What are you talking about?

    «Dumb» controllers is exactly what NI has been doing ever since. It's their core model: The software running on a PC is the brain, the controller just an extension of the GUI. Maschine can't even be used as a basic standalone MIDI controller if not hooked up to a computer with the proper driver.

    How more dumb should they get?

  • Tony Jones
    Tony Jones Member Posts: 261 Pro
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    This thread's become a little derailed — do we need a separate 'what if KK and Maschine were merged' thread?

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,305 Guru
    edited April 2022
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    No. This thread is fine. It's about the relationship between theses two products within NI.

  • Matt_NI
    Matt_NI Administrator Posts: 1,121 admin
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    To answer @Vagus specifically, they are plans for Komplete Kontrol (obviously can't really say more than that). I wouldn't say it's the case of one product being more important than the other but I suppose we're seeing a bit more released on the Maschine front now because Komplete Kontrol is a bit more of a long-term thing.

    Obviously that's not really an explanation as to why we've seen such slow progress over the past few years.

    I wish I could say more but we're getting into a longer horizon than just "next update" here with KK.

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,305 Guru
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    Yes.. and it's exactly the potential of KK in the "longer horizon" that is exciting to think about. Hopeful and optimistic. Actions over past year with iZotope and Soundwide fuel a positive path.

    The trick over the next year is how to best pull the bandaid off? A quick rip? Slowly from one corner? Soak it in warm, soapy water?

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,305 Guru
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    They need to be the right kind of "dumb".... Right now they are trying to have a unique sort of "smart" that is unsustainable.

  • Vagus
    Vagus Member Posts: 421 Guru
    edited April 2022
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    @Matt_NI Thanks kindly for the reply - always appreciated.

    Having 20 years in marketing myself, I realise the issues around product announcements, especially if those announcements don't materialise in good time. I also understand the need to save some of the big guns for shows for news generation and cut-through.

    While the thread has side-quested a bit, what would be really nice, is two things:

    An statement at the right time, about where KK is headed. Not something wish-washy like 'we're building something' or 'we're working with 3rd party on VST3 for their NKS products' - we're aware of this, and being honest, the personnel limitations in making that happen quickly, but something more like 'here's our overarching strategy, and it may take time, but we're committed to these core deliverables.'

    Then, a beta testing program for power users - many of whom are on this forum. NDAs are easily manageable, and while we can all appreciate influencers are a great ware to share messaging and new features (like recently, with Maschine), they're not really the people investing in the ecosystem. Those users, I think, are the key to your next audience. These people are your evangelists, and your first line of support.

  • ozon
    ozon Member Posts: 1,364 Expert
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    @nightjar wrote:

    They need to be the right kind of "dumb".... Right now they are trying to have a unique sort of "smart" that is unsustainable.

    Contender for Most Vague Statement of the Year.

    What is less generic than two large high resolution colour screens and eight unlabeled encoders and some touch strips?!

    Maybe take away all music related elements such as keys and pads?

    The NI hardware product lines already have huge untouched potential within the current limitations. It’s all down to the software and coping with legacy codebases and file formats. And keeping things working together as expected. Like KK and Maschine using the same browser database, which forces them to be released in sync.

    Or would you prefer to manage your libraries and favorites for each product separately?

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