S88 MK3 Cable did not work at all

Ericope
Ericope Member Posts: 2 Newcomer

Anyone else have this happen?

My issue upon receiving an S88 MK3 yesterday was that the cable provided (round end) would not bring ANY power or MIDI from my Mac Mini M1. Both ports in back are Thunderbolt 3/USB 4 USB-C ports.

Sweetwater contacting NI about a replacement cable.

Was able to use my new iPad USB-C to USB-C cable and adapter to charge and USB-C to USB-A for MIDI.

Thanks!

«1

Comments

  • BIF
    BIF Member Posts: 425 Pro

    I'm confused. Are you hoping that somebody here can help you, or are you just reporting how things are going with your customer service experience?

    Either is fine...I just can't tell from your wording what your hope is here. Thanks!

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 682 mod

    Certain computers have a USB-C issue that inconsistently affects peripherals.

    We've seen it affect Monitor Displays, Hard Drives, and so on, including also the Kontrol S MK3.

    The issue manifests as failed connection as the communication between chips fails. It can happen at random, regularly, or irregularly.

    It may appear to be related to, or solved by changing the USB-C cable itself, and yes, USB-C cables can break like any other. But this is typically a red herring. The issue has ultimately been tracked to the computer ports themselves, and the only reliable workaround we've seen as been to use a USB-C hub, which bypasses the problematic initial connection.

  • Bossynth
    Bossynth Member Posts: 8 Newcomer
    No go on using another cable.
  • BIF
    BIF Member Posts: 425 Pro

    Try flipping one end of the cable over. I suggest the end connected to the MK3.

    Call me crazy, but USB-C cables are not "always" universal. I had one in the car that only works on Apple Carplay when plugged into the phone in a certain way.

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 1,600 mod
  • BIF
    BIF Member Posts: 425 Pro

    Aaah, okay. Thanks!

  • Mark Oxley
    Mark Oxley Member Posts: 91 Helper

    A couple of questions regarding this reply.

    If this is indeed an issue of power being supplied from direct connection to a computers usb-c outputs then why wasn't this discovered during the keyboards development? To my mind this is a fundamental requirement of this model and should have had more thorough testing.

    Is NI prepared to reimburse anyone falling fail of this issue going to get reimbursed for the extra cost of having to purchase a powered usb hub to get the thing working?

    Lastly, how many of the bricked units being returned were as a direct result of this ridiculous power fiasco causing failed firmware updates to render the keyboard useless?

    When will NI take full responsibility for their obvious mistakes?

    Like many others in this forum I've invested a lot of time and money in your products and all the recent issues involving both hardware and software have left me asking myself if I will continue to remain a Native Instruments customer.

  • PK The DJ
    PK The DJ Member Posts: 822 Guru

    Ah, so a badly implemented USB-C port on a customer's computer is Native Instruments fault?

    😮

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 1,600 mod
    edited February 19

    I am sure that for various legal reasons then Matthew_NI is not allowed to go into any real discussion here about anything. Among other Matthew_NI is bound by NDAs which he has publicly stated. but I have found these quotes for you !

    A general statement from Matthew_NI , quote Matthew_NI at December 2023 :

    The hardware does work. For many thousands of users. In some cases, things can go wrong (for example, the USB-C issue mentioned above is beyond our control, and all we can do is advise workarounds).

    Quote Matthew_NI at November 2023 :

    USB-C can be fickle, on certain machines. This can affect all peripherals, but particularly ones sending lots of data back and forth, such as a display or our keyboard(s). I've seen this affect about 100 USB-C monitors across an entire business, and am bound by NDA but it appears specific to certain models of computer.

    Quote Matthew_NI at February , 2024 :

    I am very limited in what I'm able to say, and certainly not at liberty to make pages and articles that would contravene the NDA established with any other companies. The most we can do is advise here whereupon the issue surfaces, if it surfaces, that a USB-C hub is most often the solution to 99% of the folks.

  • Mark Oxley
    Mark Oxley Member Posts: 91 Helper

    I understand that in some cases the usb port could be responsible but we're talking about a lot of cases where this has been an issue. Are they all due to bad usb sockets not supplying enough power? I stand by what I said, if NI had been more thorough in testing they would have predicted this was a very likely possibility. Blaming another device for shortcomings in yours is not acceptable in my opinion.

  • reffahcs
    reffahcs Member Posts: 733 Pro

    My guess is that certain vendors implemented USB-C in a way that is not how most other vendors implemented USB-C. This happens quite often when a spec is vague, or when industry adopted a certain implementation before a standard was created. This happened with a particular WiFi standard, I believe it was N, but don't quote me on it. The spec was in draft for so long that vendors started releasing equipment that complied with the draft spec, later the spec was ratified and certain things changed, causing draft equipment to not comply with the current "standard" Needless to say, it was a huge mess.

    A good analogy would be web browsers. Way back in the day Microsoft started adding their own features to HTML, it provided extra functionality to a website, but only if you used Internet Explorer. This continues today with different web browsers interpreting the same website differently. This forces developers to have to add extra code to adjust the page on the fly for different browsers.

  • Mark Oxley
    Mark Oxley Member Posts: 91 Helper
    edited February 19

    "Quote Matthew_NI at November 2023 :


    USB-C can be fickle, on certain machines. This can affect all peripherals, but particularly ones sending lots of data back and forth, such as a display or our keyboard(s). I've seen this affect about 100 USB-C monitors across an entire business, and am bound by NDA but it appears specific to certain models of computer."

    Doesn't the mk3 keyboard have a separate power and data usb connection? How does the data connection effect the power delivery if their on separate usb connectors? Surely they are 2 separate issues. A list of the computers affected by this problem should be made available if NI know so at least perspective customers can check if there's a possibility this could happen.

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 1,600 mod
    edited February 19

    Problems are not that simple. In the tech world then problems very often is that the 'offending' company does not keep within specifications when making products. And this is certainly not a new thing. Further more then these days then so much tech relies on software as in BIOS , drivers , whatever. And with all the different products used in the chain (chips makers , mb maker, plugs, cables, drivers BIOS/Firmware , whatever) and all the different makes and the fact that sometimes then even if the maker of say e.g. the USB-C circuit chips set keeps within specifications then that does not mean that e.g. the motherboard maker keeps within chips set makers specifications when using the circuit. And then the drivers , that's a whole other can of worms with same type of problems everywhere ! So it should not come as a surprise if somewhere in the chain of all this there sometimes are mishaps !. When it comes to circuitry tech (including that which uses drivers) then those that offends by making products with problems mostly at best makes a new version of the product and stop selling the old version , and that's at best

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 1,600 mod

    Quote : "A list of the computers affected by this problem should be made available if NI know so at least perspective customers can check if there's a possibility this could happen."

    Never going to happen : NDAs , N.I. / Matthew_NI is legally bound by NDAs and any sharing information could result in a great loss for either company, depending on the outcome of any lawsuit !

    (I do not work at N.I. and all opinions expressed here is my own , and is based on information publicly available)

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 682 mod

    To be very clear, and to avoid any one opinion becoming misinformation, I'll re-state what has been said in various places:

    • As frustrating as this is to you, it is also to us.
    • This issue is specific to the USB-C implementation on certain computer models.
    • This issue is not specific to the peripherals themselves.
    • This issue causes the communication in the protocol to essentially break, thus data is dropped.
    • This manifests as various symptoms, depending on the peripheral. For Kontrol S MK3, the dropped data can interrupt a firmware update, or controller -> DAW and/or controller -> Plug-in sync.
    • The issue can appear at random, frequently or infrequently.
    • Using a USB-C hub interrupts and bypasses the problematic communication specific to the chips used in the USB-C implementation of affected machines.

    We can highlight and advise on workarounds, should a customer be affected.

    We can, and have, reported this directly to the manufacturers of affected models. So have many other manufacturers of peripherals.

    They can, and have, fixed it in newer models, but of course there exist affected models in the market that will forever be subject to the workaround.

    We cannot do any more than this. I'm sorry that some of you choose to blame us. I recognize that it's deeply frustrating, but I cannot change the facts of the matter that I've outlined above.

Back To Top