Future MIDI 2.0 functionality with Komplete Kontrol S-series MK3

Orso

Hi,

I recently ordered a KK S61 MK3 on the premise of continued updates and support for expanded MIDI 2.0 functionality. Since then, I have seen a lot of skepticism with the new controller on the internet.

I suppose one key feature of importance to me is compability with the ability to use the controls on the keyboard with non-NKS software without the use of kontakt or other intermediary software. As far as I can understand, this type of communication with DAWs and plugins is one of the big benefits of MIDI 2.0. Will this be introduced in a future udate?

What other MIDI 2.0 functionality is in the works that expands compability with DAWs, plugins and NI controllers outside of NKS, Kontakt and other proprietary software?

Kymeia

I suppose one key feature of importance to me is compability with the ability to use the controls on the keyboard with non-NKS software without the use of kontakt or other intermediary software

I think that is a bit of a myth in that for this to work the plugin developer still needs to sort and label the params that are visible to the host and MIDI 2 so they are not all over the place. Many plugins do not do this by default eg here is Pianoteq as it is loaded without any pre mapping - as you can see params are not well organised or labelled

NKS enables a developer (or user) to create mappings that make sense in terms of the needs of the performer and capabilities of the keyboard eg

If MIDI 2 is really going to be able to replicate this sort of communication there will still be work of an equivalent level that needs to be done by developers to organise their automation params more effectively (and I wonder if that will impact on backwards compatibility as it would mean significant changes to how many plugins arrange their automation IDs?). I see this as working alongside NKS2 as both can enable mapping to be done once instead of done per preset (although that is not without its own set of problems).

So tldr I do not think MIDI 2 is going to be quite the magic solution to the problem of communication between plugin, host and musician, there is still work to be done 'in the middle' to make it all sync nicely.

nightjar

People from NI have given some indications that MIDI implementation on the S-Series Mk3 will take a big leap early in 2024.

Another Mk3 firmware update is required for this next step.

Orso

Have they given any indication as to what this update will entail in terms of the functionality I described in my original post?

mykejb

I've not seen any comments on functionality, NI tend to not pre-announce specific features

-- Mike

nightjar

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/121548#Comment_121548

I suspect there will be two general paths of MIDI related development:

1) Addressing the specific "NI experience" when using Mk3 keyboards within a DAW on non-NKS tracks... templates, controller assignment and such.

2) More "generic" implementation of MIDI 2.0 in a "vender-agnostic" fashion.

Kymeia

I suppose one key feature of importance to me is compability with the ability to use the controls on the keyboard with non-NKS software without the use of kontakt or other intermediary software

I think that is a bit of a myth in that for this to work the plugin developer still needs to sort and label the params that are visible to the host and MIDI 2 so they are not all over the place. Many plugins do not do this by default eg here is Pianoteq as it is loaded without any pre mapping - as you can see params are not well organised or labelled

NKS enables a developer (or user) to create mappings that make sense in terms of the needs of the performer and capabilities of the keyboard eg

If MIDI 2 is really going to be able to replicate this sort of communication there will still be work of an equivalent level that needs to be done by developers to organise their automation params more effectively (and I wonder if that will impact on backwards compatibility as it would mean significant changes to how many plugins arrange their automation IDs?). I see this as working alongside NKS2 as both can enable mapping to be done once instead of done per preset (although that is not without its own set of problems).

So tldr I do not think MIDI 2 is going to be quite the magic solution to the problem of communication between plugin, host and musician, there is still work to be done 'in the middle' to make it all sync nicely.

Woodman

I just released WoodTroller 2.6 VST3 for NKS2 which acts as a bridge between the keyboard and the midi world (v1 and v2).

The keyboard controls the rotaries and buttons on WoodTroller via Komplete Kontrol and WoodTroller sends midi v1 or v2 UMP to whatever app/device outside KK.

WoodTroller parameter names, ranges and values are all mapped back to the keyboard via NKS2.

This is even more useful when WoodTroller uses midi v2 CI property exchange to retrieve the parameters from the discovered midi v2 app/device (like WoodSynth).

chk071

@Kymeia Do you know if the bi-directional communication in MIDI 2.0 can also group parameters, like NKS does? Also, is there any info out there which plugins already have a MIDI 2.0 implementation (full or fractional)?

Woodman

@chk071 :

the midi v2 standard "AllCtrlList" resource has a typehint and a priority and a paramPath (like "/Oscillator/A/Envelope/Attack"). But it is the initiator which has to implement groups by using any of this info.

my own WoodSynth implements midi v2 UMP (32 bits ...) and the CI property exchange.

and I know the Korg apps (and modules) implement the CI part (but not the UMP part). I tested their Wavestate native with WoodTroller.

Kymeia

Wow this looks interesting - the App Store version says it's just Au3/standalone though so is that out of date or do I need to buy it from your site?

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/woodtroller/id6445840179

Unfortunately I don't have a MkIII yet to test the NKS2 or MIDI2 functionality though :(

So as I thought MIDI 2 still takes some work on the part of the dev to actually make it usable just as NKS 1 and 2 do - the nice thing is they appear to be pretty complementary - what I'm curious about is can Woodtroller enable MPE for the MkIII keyboards?

Woodman

@Kymeia : On the Mac App Store you can buy the stand-alone version (which has the AUv3 inside) which serves as the license for the VST3. (for my other apps also for the AU and AAX plugins). Apple did not allow me to embed the plugins in the app so you just have to download it from my site.

WoodTroller will work with the MK2 as well however I think the parameter names are not updated when you change them in WoodTroller. And of course NKS2 has the very nice parameter groups ...

And yes implementing the midi v2 CI was quite a bit of work :-)

Woodman

@Kymeia : On the Mac App Store you can buy the stand-alone version (which has the AUv3 inside) which serves as the license for the VST3. (for my other apps also for the AU and AAX plugins). Apple did not allow me to embed the plugins in the app so you just have to download it from my site.

WoodTroller will work with the MK2 as well however I think the parameter names are not updated when you change them in WoodTroller. And of course NKS2 has the very nice parameter groups ...

And yes implementing the midi v2 CI was quite a bit of work :-)