Future MIDI 2.0 functionality with Komplete Kontrol S-series MK3

Orso

Hi,

I recently ordered a KK S61 MK3 on the premise of continued updates and support for expanded MIDI 2.0 functionality. Since then, I have seen a lot of skepticism with the new controller on the internet.

I suppose one key feature of importance to me is compability with the ability to use the controls on the keyboard with non-NKS software without the use of kontakt or other intermediary software. As far as I can understand, this type of communication with DAWs and plugins is one of the big benefits of MIDI 2.0. Will this be introduced in a future udate?

What other MIDI 2.0 functionality is in the works that expands compability with DAWs, plugins and NI controllers outside of NKS, Kontakt and other proprietary software?

Kymeia

I suppose one key feature of importance to me is compability with the ability to use the controls on the keyboard with non-NKS software without the use of kontakt or other intermediary software

I think that is a bit of a myth in that for this to work the plugin developer still needs to sort and label the params that are visible to the host and MIDI 2 so they are not all over the place. Many plugins do not do this by default eg here is Pianoteq as it is loaded without any pre mapping - as you can see params are not well organised or labelled

NKS enables a developer (or user) to create mappings that make sense in terms of the needs of the performer and capabilities of the keyboard eg

If MIDI 2 is really going to be able to replicate this sort of communication there will still be work of an equivalent level that needs to be done by developers to organise their automation params more effectively (and I wonder if that will impact on backwards compatibility as it would mean significant changes to how many plugins arrange their automation IDs?). I see this as working alongside NKS2 as both can enable mapping to be done once instead of done per preset (although that is not without its own set of problems).

So tldr I do not think MIDI 2 is going to be quite the magic solution to the problem of communication between plugin, host and musician, there is still work to be done 'in the middle' to make it all sync nicely.

nightjar

People from NI have given some indications that MIDI implementation on the S-Series Mk3 will take a big leap early in 2024.

Another Mk3 firmware update is required for this next step.

Orso

Have they given any indication as to what this update will entail in terms of the functionality I described in my original post?

mykejb

I've not seen any comments on functionality, NI tend to not pre-announce specific features

-- Mike

nightjar

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/121548#Comment_121548

I suspect there will be two general paths of MIDI related development:

1) Addressing the specific "NI experience" when using Mk3 keyboards within a DAW on non-NKS tracks... templates, controller assignment and such.

2) More "generic" implementation of MIDI 2.0 in a "vender-agnostic" fashion.

Kymeia

I suppose one key feature of importance to me is compability with the ability to use the controls on the keyboard with non-NKS software without the use of kontakt or other intermediary software

I think that is a bit of a myth in that for this to work the plugin developer still needs to sort and label the params that are visible to the host and MIDI 2 so they are not all over the place. Many plugins do not do this by default eg here is Pianoteq as it is loaded without any pre mapping - as you can see params are not well organised or labelled

NKS enables a developer (or user) to create mappings that make sense in terms of the needs of the performer and capabilities of the keyboard eg

If MIDI 2 is really going to be able to replicate this sort of communication there will still be work of an equivalent level that needs to be done by developers to organise their automation params more effectively (and I wonder if that will impact on backwards compatibility as it would mean significant changes to how many plugins arrange their automation IDs?). I see this as working alongside NKS2 as both can enable mapping to be done once instead of done per preset (although that is not without its own set of problems).

So tldr I do not think MIDI 2 is going to be quite the magic solution to the problem of communication between plugin, host and musician, there is still work to be done 'in the middle' to make it all sync nicely.

Woodman

I just released WoodTroller 2.6 VST3 for NKS2 which acts as a bridge between the keyboard and the midi world (v1 and v2).

The keyboard controls the rotaries and buttons on WoodTroller via Komplete Kontrol and WoodTroller sends midi v1 or v2 UMP to whatever app/device outside KK.

WoodTroller parameter names, ranges and values are all mapped back to the keyboard via NKS2.

This is even more useful when WoodTroller uses midi v2 CI property exchange to retrieve the parameters from the discovered midi v2 app/device (like WoodSynth).

chk071

@Kymeia Do you know if the bi-directional communication in MIDI 2.0 can also group parameters, like NKS does? Also, is there any info out there which plugins already have a MIDI 2.0 implementation (full or fractional)?

Woodman

@chk071 :

the midi v2 standard "AllCtrlList" resource has a typehint and a priority and a paramPath (like "/Oscillator/A/Envelope/Attack"). But it is the initiator which has to implement groups by using any of this info.

my own WoodSynth implements midi v2 UMP (32 bits ...) and the CI property exchange.

and I know the Korg apps (and modules) implement the CI part (but not the UMP part). I tested their Wavestate native with WoodTroller.

Kymeia

Wow this looks interesting - the App Store version says it's just Au3/standalone though so is that out of date or do I need to buy it from your site?

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/woodtroller/id6445840179

Unfortunately I don't have a MkIII yet to test the NKS2 or MIDI2 functionality though :(

So as I thought MIDI 2 still takes some work on the part of the dev to actually make it usable just as NKS 1 and 2 do - the nice thing is they appear to be pretty complementary - what I'm curious about is can Woodtroller enable MPE for the MkIII keyboards?

Woodman

@Kymeia : On the Mac App Store you can buy the stand-alone version (which has the AUv3 inside) which serves as the license for the VST3. (for my other apps also for the AU and AAX plugins). Apple did not allow me to embed the plugins in the app so you just have to download it from my site.

WoodTroller will work with the MK2 as well however I think the parameter names are not updated when you change them in WoodTroller. And of course NKS2 has the very nice parameter groups ...

And yes implementing the midi v2 CI was quite a bit of work :-)

Woodman

@Kymeia : On the Mac App Store you can buy the stand-alone version (which has the AUv3 inside) which serves as the license for the VST3. (for my other apps also for the AU and AAX plugins). Apple did not allow me to embed the plugins in the app so you just have to download it from my site.

WoodTroller will work with the MK2 as well however I think the parameter names are not updated when you change them in WoodTroller. And of course NKS2 has the very nice parameter groups ...

And yes implementing the midi v2 CI was quite a bit of work :-)

JSFBay

Any news on NI Komplete Kontrol S series Mk3 firmware updates? I apologize, I haven't searched this topic yet :-(

Why did Native Instruments have to develop their own standard (NKS 2)? Didn't Midi 2.0 have property exchange functionality that could have been used? Or perhaps NKS 2 is using Midi 2.0 property exchange but more is needed than just property exchange? I don't really know the lingo so please excuse my ignorance. I'm especially hoping to hear from Woodman since he is a software developer (as I was, I'm retired now) but I'm fine with being schooled by anyone :-)

Also - What about the Korg Keystage? From what I've read, this product uses the property exchange functionality to be able to display parameters on the small OLED displays above the 8 knobs, but from what I can tell, there are only a handful of Korg instruments that support this, meaning there's not much depth to the Keystage. But maybe the S series Mk3 has this same lack of depth (outside of NI products)? Thanks for any help.

JSFBay

Okay I found a post about the firmware update - I was going to edit my previous post but something isn't working properly - when I click on the 3 horizontal dots on the upper right side, I get a blank popup.

But I'm still interested in people's opinion about NKS 2 vs Midi 2.0 property exchange topic, as well as anyone who has looked at the Korg Keystage. The Keystage is obviously missing the large beautiful color display, but, it's cheaper, and it looks like it has a bit more room for the parameter name being adjusted.

The bigger issue to me is future compatibility with other virtual instruments. From what Woodman has said, there would have to be software updates to implement the Midi 2.0 prop exchange functionality, meaning that both controllers have limited appeal beyond the plugins they currently support (to be fair, NI has a ton more compatible instruments compared to the two that work with the Korg Keystage, as I understand it.) So which one will developers of virtual instrument plugins develop towards? Or maybe neither? I hope that's not the case.

Kymeia

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/150741#Comment_150741

See my post above. NKS (of which NKS2 is the most recent version), has been around well before MIDI 2 (except maybe on paper) so this is not a case of NI just being contrary and developing a competing standard. Nor are they really competing anyway, they do different things. Bidirectional communication will be useful when in MIDI mode, as it will enable, if setup properly, people working in MIDI mode to also get something like the information they can get from NKS, as well as I presume with MIDI 2 supporting hardware. However this will require developers to setup their plugins with well organised MIDI param mappings, which at the moment doesn’t always happen.

NKS works with host automation and so doesn’t affect MIDI functionality so the 2 standards can potentially work side by side so users are able to get better functionality when in a NKS supporting host using host automation, or a MIDI 2 supporting one in MIDI mode. The advantage of NKS though is that users can also create their own mappings and not have to rely on how the developer has decided to map params.

Also it’s non destructive, it does not change the underlying automation scheme for the plugin, whereas if a developer wants to implement MIDI 2 they are going to have to reorder params if they had not originally set them up in a functional arrangement, which could impact on users

nightjar

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/150741#Comment_150741

Here's some info straight from NI on the roadmap for Kontrol Mk3.. quoting @Matthew_NI :

Future (2024+)

Once the above have shipped, I imagine there are still questions about what else will happen, and by when. Although I can’t talk about everything we have planned in a public forum, I can share at least some of the things likely to bump up the backlog next. The topics of interest include:

Q2 / Q3 2024

• A more powerful production experience, with deeper DAW integrations. We’d love to improve the DAW integrations beyond basic transport functions, and improve the way we interface with stock Browsers, Instruments and Channel-strips in general.
• Increasing the immersion, with better visualizations on Kontrol S MK3. Today, each product loads a static banner image. Tomorrow, each product should have more control over what imagery is shown when, rather than one size fits all. 
• Greater expressive potential, going beyond Polyphonic Aftertouch and utilizing the full power of the Kontrol S MK3 hardware.
• Expanding the MIDI 2 implementation on Kontrol S MK3. Yes, this is limited until DAWs and content manufacturers implement MIDI 2 more widely and robustly. But I expect this to expand greatly, since MIDI 2 has some compelling capabilities.