Are certain functions not supported on windows 10?

anwi666420 · 2023-10-31T00:57:57+00:00

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Trying to figure out why the BROWSER and PLUGIN modes on my S61 MK3 keyboard won't work. I also had trouble getting the firmware updater to recognize the keyboard on that computer, so I tried to update it on my newer windows 11 PC and it worked.

When I plug the keyboard with updated firmware into my older PC, the default MIDI template and DAW modes both work, but I cant get it to recognize any plugins. I've tried running both Kontakt and Komplete Kontrol in standalone and made sure the MIDI inputs and outputs are set up in the way the manual says, and it shows up as Komplete Kontrol S61 MK3 in the MIDI settings menu.

If I try to run the firmware updater again on my older machine, it says the firmware is all up to date, so my computer can definitely recognize that a S61 specifically is plugged in. I also tried uninstalling and reinstalling hardware connections, komplete kontrol, and kontakt. Should I just wait for a new driver? Is anyone experiencing similar issues?

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PoorFellow

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/104971#Comment_104971

Quote : "like the motherboard or USB port doesn't support something needed for the software to talk to the hardware"

I have no idea if the hardware service have to be able to talk to the actual hardware (keyboard) to install correctly (which was the reason for my initial first post reaction) , but if that is needed then the recipe usually appear to be that user both have to connect the keyboard to the computer through a self-powered USB-C hub while at the same time (at least if wanting to update the firmware also) connecting an USB-C power supply to the keyboard USB-C power plug !

anwi666420

Figured I'd give this post a nice little refresh with the latest update from support.

Screenshot 2023-11-09 at 09-15-41 computer wont recognize keyboard – Native Instruments.png

Not going too well over here lmao, they cancelled my remote session saying this??? hoping somebody has figured something out on the forum

Matthew_NI

I'm not sure why there is that confusion: it is possible to update the firmware on Windows as well as macOS. There is a known issue with the S88, but you don't have an S88, so this does not apply.

If:

Everything, including the NI Hardware Connection Service is installed and running
During installation, all requested permissions are granted
The keyboard is connected via a USB-C data hub (not a power only port)
The keyboard has auxiliary power (not always required, but a good troubleshooting fallback)

And it's still not working, then it would strongly suggest that one or both of the following is happening:

NI Hardware Connection Service is experiencing an issue on your system, likely due to a security setting somewhere
USB C is inconsistently transferring data. This can happen with peripherals, and perhaps another hub might fix it

I think it might be worth a session with a more technical person on our end. @Nilo_NI @Martin_NI is this something we could help facilitate somehow.

anwi666420

@Matthew_NI

Thank you for the reply, I was able to get a remote session going with support and found an "optional" windows update that wasn't installed. Will reply back soon if that ends up being the culprit

anwi666420

Windows update did not rectify the situation, also tried adding all the apps and services involved (kontakt, KK, NIhardwareservice etc.) to exceptions in windows firewall, and that didn't work.

I agree that this seems like a security setting/software thing where some service is getting blocked. Does anyone have any other ideas to try? Potential settings that could affect USB devices and drivers/services

anwi666420

Did some poking around in some Windows troubleshooting pages and found this:

Screenshot 2023-11-13 at 09-50-04 Fix USB-C problems in Windows - Microsoft Support.png

Seems to me like even with a dock, it doesn't guarantee compatibility between a USB device and a PC that was made prior to (2019) USB 4.0 standards. I specifically tried to find this info about the KK keyboards because I wasn't confident I had a port that would work, even with a dock.

I guess I should've been a little more cautious before buying, could we possibly get some technical specs on what features/specific USB port your motherboard needs to support all the features of the keyboard?? I'm sure that newer PC's all have it standard but there's still some of us with slightly older PC's that work fine for music production in every other aspect

BIF

So it sounds like this is not a Windows 10 issue, correct? Just trying to keep my head straight, thanks.

And yeah, I ordered my current motherboard in May, 2022...so it is somewhat newer. Plus, when plugging in my MK3, I went straight into that motherboard's USB port on the backplane, and not into any of my existing hubs. Yes, I have a hub in there, but it is a brand-new hub that I bought so that in the future, I could plug other, similar devices (Maschine MK4, anybody?) in without taking up ANOTHER USB port on my motherboard's backplane. That was all based on all my reading of the forum and the installation instructions. I decided early on that it shouldn't get plugged into an old USB hub.

Now...will I have trouble plugging my MK3 into my 2012 Windows 10 desktop in the other room? Or my 2017 Windows laptop, or my M1 Mac? I guess I'll cross those roads when I get to them.

anwi666420

My 2 cents is it seems like a USB C compatibility issue. I'm not sure if the KK keyboards may need some of the PCIE tunneling/displayport features only USB 4.0 supports, and I'm also not sure if a hub would give those features/compatibility to an older computer.

Take this all with many grains of salt though, I'm not much more knowledgeable about computer hardware things than your average PC gamer

anwi666420

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/107288#Comment_107288

Well, I'm pretty stumped again. I do not think it's a USB 4 thing anymore.

I tried using a nintendo switch power supply and directly connecting using a different USB C cable (no hub) and my computer recognizes the Kontrol S61 in device manager like it does when using the hub. Still no plug in or browser mode popping up in the standalone apps.

I also tried using every USB A port with a usb C to A adapter as well as using the switch power supply, and it functions just the same. Kontrol S61 is named in device manager correctly and plug in/browser modes don't work.

DAW mode works fine in both of these configurations as well

Phil Norris

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/107288#Comment_107288

I too have problems, and believe that my USB-C ports support displayport tunneling as needed - I have (2) USB Type-C supporting Thunderbolt 3, Pass through support DisplayPort 1.4 (Mini DisplayPort 1.4 with discrete, 1.2 with UMA) USB 3.1 Gen 2 (tunnelled) and battery charging - I'm running Win 10 and have many problems connecting and updating to use the keyboard, as of yet, it's just gathering dust in the corner.

I can power the keyboard with these ports, but I can't update the firmware and the keyboard has a problem with the driver - the USB-C spec for power and data is not the problem here.

The problem (they say) is the USB-C chipset on certain PC's - there seems to be a distinct issue with data dropping causing all kinds of issues in all kinds of functionality on certain chipsets, in my case I can't get the NI firmware to update, but there are many other affected functions I can look forward to wrestling with later.

I'm not sure if it is fair to blame Native, as I have had problems with connection issues through USB-C to eg. external monitors before - even though the ports worked for hard drives and such, I remember I fixed it by installing an extra USB-C 'universal' thunderbolt driver from HP. I have also seen this on HP workstations in other situations (video capture), and even using a hub - problems persist with dropped connections and loss of functionality where USB-C is not reliable.

I also don't see how a hub can solve it either, if you are plugging a hub into the same port on the PC, then you are effectively just extending the problem - but what do I know….

DunedinDragon

I think the problem here may lie in how different manufacturers have configured their USB ports. In many cases some of the additional USB ports are actually not direct USB connections, but are internal hub connections which complicates things and causes problems. You can tell which are direct connections by looking at the Device Manager.

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