Trying to decided whether or not to keep the Komplete Kontrol S88 MK2 before return period runs out.

ProfessorChaos · 2023-03-21T16:56:42+00:00

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I have until this Friday (March 24th, 2023) to return this keyboard or keep it, and I’m still on the verge because it’s a very expensive keyboard and while I like it, it seems too expensive for what it provides.

So I was hoping to start a civilized discussion that will help me make a decision. I know a lot of people are going to be defensive because for some reason people get that way when you criticize something they bought even if they didn’t design it themselves, which never ceases to amaze me. But I’m looking to throw ****** at this keyboard, in fact I really like it, but I’m really on the verge. So I made a list of pros and cons:

Pros

The LEDs at the end of every key is a great feature, especially when used with Komplete Kontrol and NKS instruments. I definitely like seeing the range of each instrument.
Has two pedal inputs that can be programmed, so I can have one for MOD and one for EXP with two $30 pedals.
The keys may be hard, but the feeling of playing with it is great. But it’s not for everything.

Cons

The keys are harder to press than any other keyboard, and that’s not a big problem, but they tend to bounce a bit too fast, like they really want to get back up. That’s a bit of a problem when you’re trying to do really fast staccatos or pizzicatos, especially if it’s more than one key at the same time, whether it’s a chord or several percussion elements. Do these keys get less bouncy with time, or are they always going to be this way? I mean, I do love the feeling of this keyboard when playing regular notes or chords, even if it’s harder than any other keyboard I used, but it doesn’t seem like well suited for staccatos or drumming, or anything that requires pressing the keys in very fast succession. Then again, I had a piano when I was younger, and for what I remember, I wouldn’t be able to do that in a real piano either, so maybe this keyboard succeeds very well at being as close as possible to a real piano.
LEDs at the end of each key can only be taken advantage of when used with Komplete Kontrol the app, which is a trainwreck, except the trains are those miniature sets because the app is tiny. It’s like getting a Mercedes Benz with a 10” screen at the center, but it’s running Windows 95 and taking up 25% of the screen. And yet, you need to use that screen to interact with the car in several ways, like almost every car these days. Now, perhaps Native Instruments is working on a revamp of KK to make its GUI up to today’s standards, but if they are, I have no idea when. It could be years.
Adding to the last point, it’s puzzling that they haven’t made the NKS interaction work with Kontakt, which while not perfect, it’s far superior to KK.
The LEDs are missing on a very important opportunity that could help people who have dyslexia and other motor disabilities that make learning piano playing far more difficult than for most people. There could be a program where you load MIDI files that light up the LED or LEDs that you have to play next, lets say one second from now, but without all the other LEDs on and the notes being played brighter. Only the note/s that have to be played next would be lit. This would be similar to those YouTube tutorials where the notes and chords fall in kind of a Tetris way, but making it much easier to tell apart the keys in the MIDI keyboard.
The two screens and all the knobs and buttons are nice, but for the price, this keyboard seems really lacking in features. There’s so much wasted space on top of it, that you could easily have features other keyboards in this price range and much less have, like pads and faders. And the elements it does have are not really well designed. I don’t mean quality wise, this is obviously a very high quality keyboard. What I mean is that the space distribution is not that great.
For starters, all the elements at the top are almost all the way to the farther edge of the keyboard instead of centered between that edge and the edge above the keys. I’m sure graphic designers who own this keyboard must be yelling “Margins. Margins!!!”
More baffling is why if you’re not going to center all that vertically, why not put it closer to the user where all the elements are easier to see?
But really, is all that empty space at the bottom necessary? There may be a good reason, to me it just looks like poor design. This thing is massive, it takes so much space, and the question I’m asking is, is there a good reason, or is it just looks?

Adding to that poor design is the knobs and the instrument property they change when turned. That’s a nice feature to have, but you can only see what those knobs do if you’re standing above the keyboard. As it is, with the keyboard on my desk, and not the first thing that is close to me, because that’s the computer keyboard, the knobs block the lower part of the screen where you see what properties those knobs operate. So I constantly have to lean forward to see what they are, and I have severe lower back problems, so that’s not something I want to keep doing over and over.
If I had designed this keyboard, I would’ve put the four knobs for each screen to the sides of them, the first four to the left of the first screen, and the second four to the right of the right screen. That way you can look at it from the front and see the property names for each knob.
And finally, it doesn’t have any faders or pads, something that other MIDI keyboards that are far less expensive have. I have two other keyboards from Nektar and Arturia, both with pads and faders. This giant keyboard has all that empty space and no faders. I just don’t get it.

So that's all I can think of. Now, tell me why I am so wrong about some or all of these things.

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Komplete Kontrol SW

S88 MK2

Komplete Kontrol Keyboards

Kontakt 7

Comments

JesterMgee

Ok, i'll bite :)

for some reason people get that way when you criticize something they bought even if they didn’t design it themselves, which never ceases to amaze me.

It's likely not because someone paid or is a fanboy or however you want to phrase it, in most cases it is because possibly (like me) they have gripes with aspects of the product sure but have also had time to discover the benefits and also recall a time when it was NOT a solution to the problems they had. It does add that all important ability to browse VST presets fast, find a sound and start controlling things and getting ideas to paper without much fuss at all. It does that very well and has a good feeling keyboard and control system to match. That is at the core of what I personally find important.

In your Pro list I dont see you list the main core pros of the product such as ability to find sounds, ability to quickly control when loaded etc... If these aren't important to you and your workflow then possibly it is "overpriced" for the way you want to work.

So, what about the Cons you list (most are what I would call wishlist requests more than cons):

The keys are harder to press than any other keyboard....

I don't own an S88 so cannot comment on those keys, the S61 I have feels brilliant to my needs and of course what is good to one is not always great to another. I have read many users who appear to have a lot of past experience in piano playing hail the keybed for being pretty good, others who maybe have experience in different keybeds not like it so much. It's a somewhat subjective area and also depends on what you are trying to play. Drums hammered out for instance prob not as good as a synth action keybed like the S61.

LEDs at the end of each key can only be taken advantage of when used with Komplete Kontrol the app, which is a trainwreck,

Well, far from what I would call a trainwreck in terms of software. Maybe if it does not fit your needs or workflow you may think that way but works better than Akai Advance!

You can also make use of the LEDs using MIDI templates but it's no secret from users that the LEDs are a little underused and yes, would love to see some more functionality available but not sure I can really agree with the rest of the comparisons you make really, they are just indicators at the end of the day that are nice to have but not important to the overall job and also not something most keyboards even include anyway.

The LEDs are missing on a very important opportunity that could help people who have dyslexia and other motor disabilities that make learning piano playing far more difficult than for most people. There could be a program where....

It is actually possible to do something like this using a DAW and MIDI feedback to the keyboard. Setting up a track with MIDI notes on it and feeding that back to the keyboard will light the keys up. I have done this for my daughter using Ableton Live and had a post on how to do it on the old forum, CBF explaining it all again but it's achievable and it works ok. Again tho, it's a feature request and not really a "con", it's not like it was promoted as a feature that doesnt exist, just something you feel would be beneficial.

The two screens and all the knobs and buttons are nice, but for the price, this keyboard seems really lacking in features. There’s so much wasted space on top of it, that you could easily have features other keyboards in this price range and much less have, like pads and faders. And the elements it does have are not really well designed. I don’t mean quality wise, this is obviously a very high quality keyboard. What I mean is that the space distribution is not that great.

Again, this is your own personal feel. I personally do NOT want a keyboard of this calabar gussied up with pointless faders and pads when I have other devices better suited to this (Push/Maschine/MCU). I certainly would not want to pay extra for pads that would likely be pretty mediocre compared to Maschine or Push. Faders I also do not really like because they do not sync with the position, unlike my MCU which does because motor faders.

This is again not really a con since it's clear what you get before you purchase, it's something that would be a request for consideration for a future model but having been on this forum for 7+ years and seeing every request, this one strikes a lot of different opinions on what people find useful and not to forget the smaller S61/S49 also need to work with your proposed design. The reason there is no S25 is already the screens and controls make a smaller S25 impossible. Not everyone has space for an 88 key version.

But really, is all that empty space at the bottom necessary? There may be a good reason, to me it just looks like poor design. This thing is massive, it takes so much space, and the question I’m asking is, is there a good reason, or is it just looks?

There is good reason and this is why not everyone out there makes a good design/engineer, they overlook small things.

The reason for the space is to allow somewhere for you to place your hand/other fingers and rest while adjusting parameters. Sure some will hover their hand above the controls but sometimes for precision control you need space to rest your hand especially if you are standing/performing and not looking at the keyboard and that is where that space is reserved for that. So it's actually GOOD design choice. What is not good design choice is how close together the encoders are to each other for people with larger hands but this is of course to marry up with the width of the screens so more a compromise.

If I had designed this keyboard, I would’ve put the four knobs for each screen to the sides of them, the first four to the left of the first screen, and the second four to the right of the right screen. That way you can look at it from the front and see the property names for each knob.

Well, it follows the layout from the MK1 tho that had the encoders above the LCD strip but TBH, I have never had an issue. I guess it depends how you set your equipment up. I have the keyboard on a draw under my computer desk and have no issues as I look down on it. I think most people will have the keyboard at "playing height" as it sounds like in your case it sits quite high. Would be nice if those screens were at a slight angle but I much prefer the row of 8 encoders than having them split either side. It is easier to access them and feel your way around them than having to pick up your hand and more it between each side of the screens not forgetting that this keyboard is also designed to be Accessibility friendly and some people that use it do not have vision so having things easy to access by touch alone is actually an important part of their design and clean layout.

Also, it is just how it is on Maschine so it matches up with that

And finally, it doesn’t have any faders or pads, something that other MIDI keyboards that are far less expensive have. I have two other keyboards from Nektar and Arturia, both with pads and faders. This giant keyboard has all that empty space and no faders. I just don’t get it.

Basically just a rehash of a point you already made but while some will agree, as mentioned others will not since many have dedicated controls for things already and what may fit on the S88 wont fit on smaller keyboards and may not offer the same level of control as other controllers anyway.... Never heard anyone say they love the feel and response of pads on a keyboard. I guess if you were actually looking for all that extra function then it was the wrong choice from the start on your part.

Each keyboard and software package offers different pro/con features and I have purchased and sold a lot of gear I just never got on with, usually more just how I operate and less what I would call "bad design" on the developers part. Of course it's not a perfect product and I have been pretty vocal (even still) on the features just in the software I feel are lacking, a part of the system that CAN be updated such as HighDPI, resizable GUI, better filtering capabilities, a "random preset" function.... porobably at least 100 suggestions I have made over the years along with loads from other users. However, none of these suggestions I ahve made (or some I am busting to see implemented) has stopped me using it to get things done even after 7 years. It's what you make of it at the end of the day.

ProfessorChaos

Thanks for pitching @JesterMgee. All very good points, and thank you for taking the time to bring them up, so I can take them into consideration. Just to reply to a few:

LEDs at the end of each key can only be taken advantage of when used with Komplete Kontrol the app, which is a trainwreck,

Well, far from what I would call a trainwreck in terms of software. Maybe if it does not fit your needs or workflow you may think that way but works better than Akai Advance!

(Geez, I wish you could just select part of the post and click on "Reply" like most forums these days, it would make things so much easier.)

Well, I guess I'm lucky I don't have anything Akai then. OK, so maybe trainwreck is a bit harsh, but let me give you an example. The other day I had downloaded a MIDI from Ashton Gleckmann with an Interstellar piece. Being a Zimmer die hard fan, I was thrilled, and I know this score well, so the first thing I did was to try to find the best massive organ I have in my libraries.

So I said, let's give KK a chance. So I clicked on the filter button labeled "Organ" in the Types List:

So I get 3 presets at a time, in a small blurry font, and I can't even resize the window vertically to see more at a time. So that to me is design failure #1.

You might say "Well, you can see 7 at a time in the second screen in the keyboard." Sure, but the keyboard is not angled towards me, and from where I sit normally, it's about 34 inches / 86.5 cm from my eyes, at probably a 35º angle. I can read the presets that are not selected, but straining my eyes, and I can't read at all the one that is selected unless I lean forward until I'm almost looking down on it.

I don't have this keyboard in a bizarre position, in fact, I have seen plenty of YouTube tutorials from people who know way more than I do, and many of them have a similar layout.

Sure, if I had it like you describe, in a drawer underneath your computer desk, that would be different, but this thing is gigantic, I don't think I would trust any kind of drawer with something of this size and weight.

But it's OK, obviously they designed more for people who look at it from the top than from a much lower angle like myself.

But to finish, going back to KK the app, I can certainly click on TYPES, then CHARACTERS, each and every time, which is sure to get old after you do it a hundred times, and I'll see more presets.

And this is design failure #2. Like I mentioned, I clicked on Organs because I was looking for a large cathedral type organ like Zimmer used in Interstellar. So what I get in the long list is a lot of names that generally speaking, don't tell me much. The fourth one is the organ from White Shade of Pale. Cute song, not what I need. But at least it tells me that's one I don't need.

But then I get tons of things that can be called "organ" but are far from the type of organ I need. So this causes me to waste a lot of time, going through a long list to find what I'm looking for.

Cinematic Samples and Project Sam (and possibly others), did something very simple and effective to cut through all this mess. They added the name of the product to the beginning of the preset name:

So when I scroll down after searching for something, let's say violins, and I see CSS 1st Violins, I know what those are. I know what they sound like, what to expect.

But as it is, for most of the presets, I see this:

And that's just chaotic to me. Sure, some day I may be able to memorize the 43344 presets in there, but... who the hell am I kidding, I can't even remember what I was going to give as an example that I can't remember.

It is actually possible to do something like this using a DAW and MIDI feedback to the keyboard. Setting up a track with MIDI notes on it and feeding that back to the keyboard will light the keys up.

I posted about this and I think you explained it there. And yes, what you mention is a good method, but apparently you can't turn all the LEDs off and have it play just the ones that you want. Or did you get to do that?

Because when I play a MIDI track in Logic with KK in that track, it will light up the notes, but all the others are still lit, it's the same as if you were playing.

JesterMgee

With regards to how many presets are listed on screen, yeah that's been a complaint for a while. You can close down the tag section once you have things selected to filter and this will help as does just loading a plugin to expans the window but hopefully we see a resizable window because no idea why they believed that was a usable size...

So browsing presets will never be perfect in how each person feels it should work. There are just far too many variables to take into account and in many cases there is just not enough actual metadata in plugins to extract reliable tagging that is "perfect".

Using the additional Character filters is def a good idea as is spending some time to get to know some plugins. When I need something for instance I already have some ideas of what plugins have what kinds of sounds so I may just select so I will just select a plugin and filter from there but I do wish it was possible to select/deselect plugins from a search easily so you could exclude some plugins. What makes this process fast tho is the sound previews so you can speed through all the rubbish and find something useful, way easier than purely going from memory on what plugins you own that may have a good Organ sound... Then there are the cases where you find an interesting sound you would never have found otherwise.

In regards tot he MIDI LED thing, no you just have the LEDs illuminated and follow the highlighted ones. I feel the LEDs are more of a gimmik TBH, useful on only about 10% or less of instruments and mostly unused most of the time. FOr my needs, I have no need for them and figure no other keyboards out there have the feature so it's nice when they are useful but otherwise nothing that is done better by any other keyboard really.

Simchris

I use the space on my 88 very well.

wzdm.85

I would definitely return it before the encoders get sloppy on you!

ProfessorChaos

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/59517#Comment_59517

I just find it laughable that years ago when they designed KK, they were coming to the alpha stage, and a group of employees tested it and thought it was not in the least ridiculous that after you filtered by whatever type and/or character you want, you're left with just 3 visible presets.

And even more laughable that when it came to the beta stage, and there was another round of testing (was there?), again, nobody found that absurd in the least.

And then it was released, and remained that way, and by now it's not laughable, it's pathetic. I don't know what programming language they used for it, but are you going to tell me that it's a language so terrible that it won't allow to set the default height for that window? I mean, maybe, if we're talking about Java in the late 90's.

And I'm puzzled not just because of this, but why do they go to the trouble of putting there a typical macOS plist file when it doesn't use it at all. For those not familiar, it's basically a small file containing preferences for the application it belongs to, typically sitting in /Users/[username]/Library/Preferences with a name like "com.native-instruments.Komplete Kontrol.plist" as is the case here. There is another one in the system library, but it doesn't contain much.

I mean, look at this:

You have lots of parameters there that you can change. And I did, some just for the sake of it, knowing that I could go back to a backup of the file if it screwed things up, but to see if it :

Dialog About Height: 338 to 600
DialogSavePreset Height: 150 to 300
Bar Height: 166 to 200
DialogSavePreset Width: 360 to 600
DialogAbout Width: 482 to 700
Bar Width: 360 to 400
DialogPreferences Height 495 to 600
Main Window Height 756 to 1200
Main Window Width 1430 to 2000

I was hopeful about this because when I was taking custom size screenshots of the different elements I changed, the number of pixels matched what the value was in there.

But nothing changed. So then I started deleting the devices that showed there, like my keyboards, the Maschine Mikro, to see if when I opened it the next time, I would go into the settings and they would be gone. But no, they were still there.

So why did NI put a fake plist in there? As a psych? Because I can tell you, for a minute there, you got me! Great job!

The thing is, I can understand that Native Instruments doesn't have time to take care of everything right now. I know programming is extremely difficult, and that overhauling the whole interface for HiDPI takes a lot of time.

But nobody's going to tell me that changing a line of code where it specifies the default window height when it loads, is something that they can't do in five minutes and then push it out to Native Access. It seems to me that it's just laziness.

At least, if you had the choice to assign a preset to load as default (correct me if I'm wrong, but I looked it up and it's not possible), then you could load the instrument with the largest and tallest GUI and that would take care of the problem.

You can get around this in your DAW by creating and saving a custom channel strip or whatever the name is in your DAW, and set it as default. For example, this is what I did in Logic:

So now I can create a new instrument track, and it will load that as default, and give me a few more presets when I filter. Perhaps if I learn the Creator Tools, I can even create an instrument with nothing but a very tall GUI that will give me the most presets I can get with my display resolution.

I don't absolutely hate the preset system, I think it can be useful for certain things, even if it's just to play previews at random. But it's super lame that NI released something that can show you just 3 presets at a time unless you click to hide the filters each and every time to see more presets. And those presets should have at least an indication of what product they belong to, like what Project Sam does with Symphobia and Alex of CSS did with his products. That way, if you click on "Bowed Strings", and you get a lot of results (5193 in my case), you can scroll fast and see the different products they belong to, and that way, find the right preset for what you're working on.

Honestly, I think they're cool as ******. But I insist that NI is missing a huge opportunity with them, both to help piano students and therefore to get more sales. Imagine if they had some sort of academy that comes for free with each KK keyboard sold, where they could teach people of all ages both classical music and popular songs with the light system. I know it's doable, just from the fact that depending on what instrument you load, you have some lights that are off and some are on. It's just a matter of programming them in a specific sequence.

ProfessorChaos

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/59517#Comment_59517

And even more laughable that when it came to the beta stage, and there was another round of testing (was there?), again, nobody found that absurd in the least.

I mean, look at this:

You have lots of parameters there that you can change. And I did, some just for the sake of it, knowing that I could go back to a backup of the file if it screwed things up, but to see if it :

Dialog About Height: 338 to 600
DialogSavePreset Height: 150 to 300
Bar Height: 166 to 200
DialogSavePreset Width: 360 to 600
DialogAbout Width: 482 to 700
Bar Width: 360 to 400
DialogPreferences Height 495 to 600
Main Window Height 756 to 1200
Main Window Width 1430 to 2000

I was hopeful about this because when I was taking custom size screenshots of the different elements I changed, the number of pixels matched what the value was in there.

So why did NI put a fake plist in there? As a psych? Because I can tell you, for a minute there, you got me! Great job!

You can get around this in your DAW by creating and saving a custom channel strip or whatever the name is in your DAW, and set it as default. For example, this is what I did in Logic:

Honestly, I think they're cool as s**t. But I insist that NI is missing a huge opportunity with them, both to help piano students and therefore to get more sales. Imagine if they had some sort of academy that comes for free with each KK keyboard sold, where they could teach people of all ages both classical music and popular songs with the light system. I know it's doable, just from the fact that depending on what instrument you load, you have some lights that are off and some are on. It's just a matter of programming them in a specific sequence.

ProfessorChaos

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/59522#Comment_59522

I gotta say, that looks so f****ing cool, man. Now, unless you have extremely long arms, I think you probably operate all these hanging from the ceiling like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. Tell me the truth, you have a rig like that, don't you? 😂

Gee_Flat

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/60046#Comment_60046

I think his point was that he has a device on one side and a wireless keyboard on the other side of the S88, therefore utilizing all the empty space. But yeah, pretty cool pick.

And in a town where he was born lived a man who sailed to sea.

BIF

I'm not really sure what the OP is going for here. Is he expecting us to give him permission to return one of the best designed, most responsive, and rock-solid reliable fully-weighted 88-key MIDI keyboard controllers to the retailer or manufacturer because he's feeling guilty for paying so much for it? Or is he fishing for reasons to keep it and calm his buyer's remorse?

I think the OP should probably return the equipment and be done with it.

This COULD HAVE BEEN a very good, very constructive conversation, but the OP started out assuming things that are not true about this community, and then didn't even take the time to present the question fairly.

First, he completely omits some very important "pros", some of which a prior poster mentioned above. I would add that the big and bright screens on the KK are a major pro, because they work so well with the app, especially with the library browsing knobs, buttons, and other features, but also because they just help you get things done in a very hands-on way.

Then he added some rather insulting language on the "con" side of his argument, which I believe gives away his true feeling on this question. "Poor design?" Really? Hard to press keys? Have you never PLAYED a real piano? When you press down keys on a real piano, you're activating actual HAMMERS that strike the strings. I get it if you don't like real piano action, and that's okay, because there are synth-action models available too. But this is not a "poor design" and it's not a flaw of the controller, the designers, or the manufacturer.

Based on the language you used when presenting your question, I doubt anybody here would have a snowball's chance in hell of convincing you that you've overlooked some important features, because in your own presentation of the problem, you've basically told us you don't like the hardware.

That's okay, really it is. And we won't judge you if you don't like it. Just take advantage of the return policy and get it done. Maybe you would prefer the 76-key or 49-key versions...they have a synth action keybed, which you may like better. Or maybe you would like the model without the built-in screens. That's okay. Just don't come here and accuse us of not being willing to have a civilized conversation without becoming "defensive even though we didn't design it". And please don't accuse me of being defensive, because I have the older 49-key synth-action model and it's just fine for me.

Anyhow, that's my opinion. Return it. Get something you'll like better, but maybe stay away from hammer-action keybeds (and real pianos? 😄). Get something you will actually use to make music and you won't put up on a shelf and forget about in 2 weeks.

I wish you the best of luck on your decision, I really do.

ProfessorChaos

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/60067#Comment_60067

I've been on the internet long enough to tell when someone tries to have a good conversation about a topic, or is just trying to tease me to get into a fight. The other people in this thread belong to the former group, you clearly belong to the latter, given all the patronizing statements, so I'm not going to bother replying to all your points. It's crystal clear by your rant about the keys that you haven't read much of what I wrote, including that I thought that while the keys are a bit hard, I grew up with a piano at home, and that I remember its keys being about the same, so I said "so maybe this keyboard succeeds very well at being as close as possible to a real piano."

For the record, this was a constructive conversation, up until the point where you came to try to pick up a fight, and I did decide to keep it, not because anybody here gave me "permission" like you said, but because I like the keyboard, and given that I also spent $1,300 in Komplete 14 CE, this is the keyboard that can take advantage of them the best, at least of what's around these days.

I really don't understand why people get so offended when you criticize something they bought, not designed or created in any way. It's an object, people. A tool. Not a person, not an animal. Just a tool to make music. Now, if I criticized a song you wrote, something you created, that I could understand.

Simchris

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/60046#Comment_60046

Thanks... the osmose in front was just there temporarily. Wide angle lens makes it seem deeper than it is. Argosy 88 desk, which you can lookup for actual dimensions.

Rustbolt

Did you keep or return the keyboard? Just curious about your final decision.

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