Is Maschine Plus a beta for an awesome next release?

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  • Akira-76
    Akira-76 Member Posts: 40 Helper

    For sure, the software could be optimize to a certain point, but the manifest problem imo is that little features that don't need particular optimization are not present on Maschine+ :

    • preset/sample tagging
    • macro creation and midi learn on it
    • automation edition (I mean edit that was recorded with macro or not)
    • midi import and export

    All of this is possible on computer, why they are not on Maschine+? Clearly it is not a question of better specs.

    By thinking of it today, if we suppose that the target users of Maschine+ is for those who use Maschine and use only NI Vst, to allow them to follow / sketch projects outside the studio. If we suppose that, Maschine+ have all the functions for this use, but clearly it is not optimize to bear the audio part. Because we all know here, that a project with 2 or 3 instances of Massive / Reaktor will skyrocketing the CPU and glitched will be heard.

    Ni say that they will improve the audio on the firmware 1.4 which could come in months. But simple things that already exist on Maschine 2 was not part of their communication. Imo it's a bad choice.

  • ozon
    ozon Member Posts: 1,301 Expert
    edited January 2022

    @Akira-76 wrote:

    Because we all know here, that a project with 2 or 3 instances of Massive / Reaktor will skyrocketing the CPU and glitched will be heard.

    For somebody not interested in using the synths and effects, you’re quite bold with your claims. How would you know?

    You make it look as if this unit is completely unusable, to a degree that is close to defamation. I often use way more than 2 or 3 instances of Monark and Massive, especially when trying out different sounds for a track, and rarely have glitches due to the synths causing CPU overload.

    The interesting thing with CPU load is that the first instance can use 20-30% but additional instances will add much less than that. When the M+ was released, quite a few poeple did this kind of performance test and generally came to the conclusion that it can handke „more synth than you need in a track“.

    However, using different types of synth engines will actually have a negative impact.


    PS: Thinking of why it obviously works better for me than for others - I never use Kontakt Instruments and generally don’t go for Kits from Expansions either, except as a starting point for an idea.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert
    edited January 2022

    @Akira-76 wrote:

    Ni say that they will improve the audio on the firmware 1.4 which could come in months. But simple things that already exist on Maschine 2 was not part of their communication.

    If you consider editing automation on M+ simple thing... How would you implement it? So that it is usable and users do not complain that it is cumbersome and not usable for real work....

    There are many things that are missing in Maschine 2.... And it is a miracle that only few things from Maschine 2 are missing in M+ when one takes in account user interface limitations....

  • tetsuneko
    tetsuneko Member Posts: 586 Guru
    edited January 2022

    there are 8 soft buttons and 8 encoders + page selector buttons. That's more controls than you have on a typical gamepad controller. I dont think it's the lack of tactile controls holding things back. But sure, someone needs a proper boffin to come up with a good way to use these controls for automation editing..

    I think one good approach could be to add pages to the event editor. Such subpages could then be used for editing automation data of the selected events, exactly like note/velo/lenght is now handled. This would limit automation editing capability to something like parameter locks on the elektrons, so not ideal for continous/sweeping data, but maybe they could add some sort of "slide" concept to automation events to cater for those..

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert

    But automation data is sort of continuous stream, not isolated items like notes, velocities. That is the interface problem. One needs xy pointing device... Two knobs might be used, but it is not very comfortable.

    It may be faster and better input the automation again in real time.

    But yes, if Maschine 2 gets implemented some sort of automation elements like fade in, fade out that could be easily ported to M+. But one may not expect M+ having more capabilities than Maschine SW.

  • ozon
    ozon Member Posts: 1,301 Expert

    @Kubrak wrote:

    But automation data is sort of continuous stream, not isolated items like notes, velocities.

    Actually, Maschine does not have automation. It has parameter modulation, which is stored in Patterns and the data is very discreet. Just check out the threads where users complain because the recorded „filter automation“ of their external synths is stepping. For discreet values like Velocity, we already are able to edit them in the Step sequencer and Events view. That would be a PITA, but it would work and offer a consistent interface.

    But I bet it‘s not what people are expecting...

  • Andy Wt
    Andy Wt Member Posts: 74 Helper

    Usually you dont need to automate every MIDI tick, you just add several points and software calculates required values inbetween using different selectable types of curves. Easy-peasy with current set of hardware controls. And recorded automation also could be approximated with curves using limited set of control points.

  • Akira-76
    Akira-76 Member Posts: 40 Helper
    edited January 2022

    For somebody not interested in using the synths and effects, you’re quite bold with your claims. How would you know?

    As you probably didn't notice, I express here objectives facts. It is not because I didn't use Massive / Reaktor etc on my daily work that I didn't test them...

    You make it look as if this unit is completely unusable, to a degree that is close to defamation. I often use way more than 2 or 3 instances of Monark and Massive, especially when trying out different sounds for a track, and rarely have glitches due to the synths causing CPU overload.

    If you read my previous posts, I wrote very clearly that actually it is possible to work with it, as others mention also. But the fact is, also, that default project on Maschine+ generate audio gliches when played. And they didn't contain 5 or 6 instances of Massive or Reaktor. So my point is still accurate.

    The interesting thing with CPU load is that the first instance can use 20-30% but additional instances will add much less than that.

    You speak when you load same instances, I agree, but when you play the CPU % can increase to 15% more. So, yeah the software seem to not load multiple instance of the same VST but each voice you play increase the CPU load. That is normal, but so the % skyrocket.

    Try it ! 1 instance of Massive, and play 4/5 notes at a time, and from 20/25% (15% for some presets) you will reach easily 30 to 40% (or 20/25% with some presets). And around 75% you begin to experience glitch (when playing a song with the sequencer).

    If you, like many people, take care of it, yes, you're right you have the possible to not saturate the CPU, but it is because you have to take care.

    By changing the default SD card with a better one, you could have better performance (I didn't test it, but I trust people who report it). NI didn't mention it. People have to find it by their own, it is not normal imo.


    If you consider editing automation on M+ simple thing... How would you implement it? So that it is usable and users do not complain that it is cumbersome and not usable for real work....

    The Squarp pyramid which didn't have a touchscreen implement a way to visualize and edit automation in a efficient way. And it have less knob and button than Maschine+ and it is way underpowered compare to Maschine+ specs. Squarp pyramid have a touch sensitive area, but you can just use the 5 knobs to edit automation. So it is imo possible to add automation edition after recording on Maschine+.

    People didn't complaint about automation on Maschine+? Just read feature request here and around and you will see by yourself... I personaly didn't thing that "automation edition" is the "most" important feature to add, but I thing it is objectively an important feature for a device like Maschine+.

    There are many things that are missing in Maschine 2.... And it is a miracle that only few things from Maschine 2 are missing in M+ when one takes in account user interface limitations....

    I agree that "many things are missing on Maschine 2", but sorry, tag edition / macro edition et midi lean creation are already implemented on Maschine 2, and again it didn't need a more powerful CPU to be implemented on Maschine+ . On my side I didn't ask things that didn't exist already on Maschine 2.

  • ozon
    ozon Member Posts: 1,301 Expert

    This along with Aftertouch/Poly-Pressure is probably one of the longest standing feature requests for the Maschine software. If it wasn‘t possible (?) there, chances for it to happen on the M+ are probably below zero.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert

    Yes I know, it is modulation, but most people call it automation.

    And it is continuous, by nature. That Maschine handles it way it handles it is another story... Would be better if NI used aproximation betwen particular values, instead of bringing current state to M+, just because it would be easier to edit it, I gguess.

  • ozon
    ozon Member Posts: 1,301 Expert

    And that, I think is already the first problem: People call it automation and expect it to behave like automation in their DAW, while in fact, this is not what NI claims. Nobody would expect Elektron boxes to offer continuous automation of parameter locks — although they can interpolate between step values, which is quite cool.

    Second problem is that continuous doesn’t exist in the digital realm. It’s always about resolution (sample rate) of a continuous (analog) signal. Therefore, what you can record and what you can draw with curves are completely separate things. A problem that’s not even solved by most DAWs AFAIK.

    And then there’s the question of the format to represent the automation data: Points or curves.

  • Akira-76
    Akira-76 Member Posts: 40 Helper

    Yes... the etymology used by NI is confusing...

    You have here : https://youtu.be/E5FZSKcsLxI?t=1540 a visual description of how it work.

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 2,811 mod
    edited January 2022

    The Modulation VS Automation terminology? It's simple: Modulation = internal; Automation = external. Now why they called the physical button "AUTO" I have no idea but it does add to the confusion.


    I didn't mean to undermine that synth, it's like comparing Maschine to Pro Tools or Ableton, in comparison MAS is "simple" but it's a relative term, not meant to be offensive, even within complex things are always levels. I'd agree the HW is fine, not amazing but fulfills my expectations. Yes, the CPU "what-if" discussion gets boring pretty fast, it has what it has and that ain't changing anytime soon, if ever. Personally, I don't blame anything on HW.

    I do agree with OP overall sentiment that the device itself wasn't ready at release, idk if folks that make these calls simply aren't proficient enough at using the sw/hw to make such delicate decisions in the first place or if a target date was set expecting an unrealistic development speed but then you have to deliver it anyway or high ranked staff looks bad to board members or something... Allegedly the project already had been postponed/removed right before production, (that's what supposed ex-employees anonymously said during that big layoff in 2019, idk if it's true and even if I did I couldn't say; it was hard to believe at the time but now sounds actually realistic)

    Turning software with an old codebase into a standalone was a very bold move by a company that never really did any standalone groove box before, AKAI has been making them for decades and even they have their own set of issues, the release timing was also unfortunate since covid hit not long after forcing people to work from home and whatnot... That didn't help, neither does the whole M1 priority thing.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert

    Modulation is continuous as well as sound is. The way it is represented in data is another story. And the way data that represent it are interpreted/used yet another story....

    So, I guess, it becomes obvious it is not that simple task to add modulation editting feature in M+....

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert

    Yes, but it is step sequencer. And it has touchpad to input/draw xy values... On M+ one may change parameter any time, not just at given sequenced instants. And there is no touchpad... And the lenght one needs to address is not generally few beats, but it may be easily hundreds of beats....

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