Is Maschine Plus a beta for an awesome next release?

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  • Reefius
    Reefius Member Posts: 244 Pro
    edited January 2022

    If there is one thing I've learned about NI over the years, it's not to buy an MK1 of anything. MK2 and later are the way to go, because they have more features and cost the same or less.

    Maschine MK3 is a great example, for the same price as the MK2 used to cost you get those 2 color screens and a built-in audio interface.

    Same with Komplete Kontrol keyboards, the tiny displays on the MK1 were kinda 'meh', while the MK2 has the same color screens as Maschine.

    I'm patiently waiting for Maschine+ MK2 with hopefully a much more powerful CPU.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert

    It is not the truth always. I prefer KK S88 Mk1 to Mk2. Yes, no display, but I like the keybed better. And keybed is the most importatnt aspect....

    I also learned, it might be bettter wait with purchasing MK1. But for quite opposite reason to yours. ;-)

    What if there comes no mk2? Traktor D2, Traktor S5. Maschine Jam. What if one likes HW, gets used to it, it fits his workflow and one day End Of Life? I guess that is worse, than if MK2, MK3 comes. It is natural, that new model has more features for comparable cost.

    I guess you would not expect that price of cars increases and increases as they become bettter and better. The same with computers, laptops, etc. The price even goes down while capabilities rise exponentially.

  • tetsuneko
    tetsuneko Member Posts: 586 Guru

    I don't think the vision for Maschine+ is like an iPhone. Nobody wants to spend 1.4k every year for a modest upgrade. If Mk 2 of Maschine+ comes out too soon, it will alienate a lot of the existing userbase.

    Even Akai uses that same old SOC chip on all their standalone devices. The same CPU on MPC live Mk I & II, MPC X, One, Akai force. They dont want to introduce a better specced SOC because existing users would come out with their pitchforks.

  • sp4o4
    sp4o4 Member Posts: 8 Member

    They should offer a program to send the maschine+ back and they put a better cpu and more ram to actually handle this device..

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert

    Well, in time of development of M+ probably not, but now or in few months yes. For example AMD just released CPU that has 8C/16T (Ryzen 7 6800U) and could be passively cooled, I guess. TDP is 15W (real 15W, not like Intel´s TDP) and probably one may go even lower. And at the end of 2022 might come a new model on better process (lower consumption or higher speed and more advanced CPU architecture...)

    Better Maschine SW or OS will not solve much... CPU demand vise... The plugins would have to be reworked, if possible. And it is possible only to certain limit if sound quality should not be sacrificed.

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 2,811 mod
    edited January 2022

    But... That implies it's the consumer's fault; people also wanted cheap back then it was just impossible for companies to do it due to the manufacturing cost. I can buy a Laptop, a SmartPhone, and other advanced gadgets that are essentially computers right now and not feel like any of them are a work in progress and I am a beta tester... If there is anything to blame on the music tech consumers I'd say it's users general low standards which make the more advanced users look like whiners... But in the long run, those users will be more knowledgeable and discover the flaws too and failure is unavoidable if the product does not improve dramatically.

    In the 80's those samplers were often using new cutting-edge tech which alone justified their price, an IBM AT 5170 computer was 6000$ and had the same CPU as a MPC60 (afaik), so the price was fair for the tech available at the time.

    With Moores Law's in full effect since then a modern age standalone does not need cutting-edge tech by any stretch of the imagination, it can work with very low-end cheap chips compared to a high-end workstation computer (which still cost 5-10k right now)... So a lower price is not a justification to sell an unfinished product.

  • Akira-76
    Akira-76 Member Posts: 40 Helper

    The software is (as the programmer I am since 25 years) as important as the hardware (except if the hardware add a new technology). When you use high level programing language you loose the benefit of the hardware.

    I've had one of the first IBM PC, and what happen since the early days is the looseness of the power of the hardware due to the way software are develop. With a relative exception, when a new processor with a "real" new technology was released.

    Everybody can see the difference by comparing the speedness between Windows and Linux for example.

    Obviously software today can do far much things than before but those software are mostly under the efficience of the actual hardware. Mostly due to unefficiente software stacks but also high level programing. And the tendance is to add stacks and add higher level of programing instead of programing efficiently.

    The rumor said that Maschine+ was develop by adding software stacks, and it sound the reality. So a Maschine+ MK2 will loose the benefit of better specs if NI didn't change the way of programing, by adding too much stacks. And certainly NI will add Massive X on the MK2 which is to fanzy for a hardware device imo (or perhaps only Massive X and nothing else, no sequencer, no sampler, nothing else).

    Imagine a second that today Akai build a MPC with the actual specs of Maschine+. I didn't like particularly Akai but for sure this device will be better optimized and so, far more enjoyable than Maschine+ today in term of performance.

    The best Maschine+ Mk2 imo will be not particularly a 8core CPU with 16gb of ram, but just a device that is optimized for it's purpose. But sincerly with the way it is and it go, I didn't think NI will build anyday such device.

    If they can't optimize and "finish" Maschine+, no hope for the future, except a awareness that the way they develop Maschine+ was wrong.

  • ozon
    ozon Member Posts: 1,301 Expert

    But... That implies it's the consumer's fault

    Yes. It is. It’s how this economy works. The majority of consumers want stuff cheap, regardless of quality. And that’s what is produced, because companies can make even more profit then.

    And that’s what music gear is today: Mass products.

    Take something simple like a guitar and ask yourself: How many customers will go to a luthier and spend 5'000€ for a custom build guitar, and how many customers will rather buy the cheapest Fender model for 100€? And which of the two products is more profitable?

    It is us, the customers, voting with our money. And it is never quality that wins. Otherwise we’d not have VHS, CD and USB win over other, slightly more expensive but vastly superior formats.

    BTW, another very interesting observation: It’s rarely the professionals who are complaining about products being way too expensive and having insufficient features. It’s almost always the hobbyists. The pros are too busy producing…

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert

    Akira-76,

    I have been programming for more than 40 years. I do not agree, that higher level languages produce much worse (less efective) code... Also, it is often better to write simpler code that is easier to maintain, than super sophisficated code, that may be harder to maintain or port to different OS, CPU.....

    Massive X may be nice example. It has been optimized for certain x86 instructions, so that it may have better sound with given CPU. But porting to Apple Silicon means to rewrite parts of the code. And to eternaly maintain two different version of code....

    Also, to make super optimal code, costs. On development and even more on maintaining... So, the cost must be justified by user's needs and income....

    Generally, it is often much cheaper to use stronger HW than super optimize SW, if possible.

    HW improves, say, ten times in ten year, hundred times in twenty years and thousand times in thirty years. That is much more, than one could do by writting super optimal SW.

    The thing with M+ is that, some people have wrong expectations that it will do the same job like strong PC. And it is simply impossible.

  • Akira-76
    Akira-76 Member Posts: 40 Helper

    For sure, high level languages is easier to maintain but high level languages need stacks that reduce the speedness.

    For computers it is not a problem since their aim is to be versatile, but for a dedicated hardware for a specific purpose (that are by definition limited specs), I don't think high level languages is better.

    Like you said, because a "super optimal code mean more cost", because of that I think that it is too fanzy, even I agree that Massive X will be nice. But at a certain point compromises have to be made.


    I don't think that "pro" are not complaining because they produce. They are mainly not complaining because they can invest or access to more expansive gear that work properly.

    And I don't think the problem is mostly customer, because companies have the choice to not product in mass gears. NI decided to it, so they have to deal with it.

    It is not since yesterday that the "mass" want cheaper gears.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert
    edited January 2022

    It depends on what you call high level language. For me it is C/C++. And the code generated by good compiler from C++ code is pretty close to code made in assembler. There are exceptions and some parts need to be written in assembler for obtaining optimal performance, but for majority code C/C++ is just fine.

    I knew from beginning, M+ is not for me as I couldn't do my projects on it standalone. But for many's needs it is just fine. Maybe not perfect, but what is perfect in inperfect world?

    I hope MK2 will come and it will be much (2-4x) stronger and more memory to fit my needs. Maybe NI could produce more models differing in CPU and/or RAM....

    My guess is that Pros do not complain because they know what to expect. And how to address weak points. Part of mass has more expectations that simply cannot be met and less knowledge to avoid weak points. And some of them expect to get Audi for price o Wartburg.

  • drewhjava
    drewhjava Member Posts: 31 Helper
    edited January 2022

    I can't imagine they'll upgrade the board anytime soon. The MPC has been using the same board since 2017 and they sell like mad. Again because they put constraints on what the internal instruments can do (limited voices, limited number of instruments, limited effect chain) and also the customer base is different. People see Maschine and they think 40 terabyte pianos from NI. Then somehow surprised they can't load 80 instruments in a box that costs $1300. It's all kind of comical if you think about it.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,772 Expert

    Hard to say. M+ might be in one third, half of its life cycle. So, Mk2 might come in 2023-24. If it comes.

    There could be constraints on number of voices, instruments, effects, ..... But if crackles come there may be solution. For example to increase the size of audio buffer. It seems to me that it is better to let user go beyond the computational capabilities, if he desires.

    But maybe safe mode with limitations and expert mode without limitations might be solution....

    The problem is, as you write, that part of users expect 4C Atom with 4 GB RAM can do similar job like PC with 4-8x more CPU power and 4-16x more RAM...

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 2,811 mod
    edited January 2022

    @ozon said:

    It’s how this economy works. The majority of consumers want stuff cheap, regardless of quality. And that’s what is produced, because companies can make even more profit then.

    And that’s what music gear is today: Mass products.

    Of course, that's true, especially in the general consumer market, but the standalone market is a niche one where rules are a bit different, it's not a product type that an average consumer would just wake up one day and randomly decide to spend 1300$ on.

    Example: My girl buys cheap headphones even tho they break after 4 months, she's is an average consumer looking for cheap stuff, I bought some Sennheiser's 8 years ago for 10x the price and still have them, I am not the average consumer; different markets. Sennheisers mid-range products seem to be selling just fine.


    @ozon Said:

    Take something simple like a guitar and ask yourself: How many customers will go to a luthier and spend 5'000€ for a custom build guitar, and how many customers will rather buy the cheapest Fender model for 100€? And which of the two products is more profitable?

    A lot actually, I am the only person I know with a cheap guitar, I've known tons of guitar players over the years, hobbyists and pros, even my band's roadies all have fancy guitars.

    That's mass-producing for low margin VS small batches for high-profit margin, both can be very profitable depending on the company size and how it's structured; there's no rule that one approach is always more profitable than the other, it depends, otherwise those making 5k $ guitars would all be out of business by now and all you would see on a guitar shop would be the cheap ones, that's not the case, at all.

    I got a 150$ Guitar and it has no bugs, it doesn't shut down or glitch the audio mid-performance, it works as intended, it might be rough around the edges in the details but I don't feel like a beta tester for an unfinished product at all, that's my point... It's cheap but works and fulfills the customer's expectations (if they are realistic).


    @ozon Said:

    It’s rarely the professionals who are complaining about products being way too expensive and having insufficient features. It’s almost always the hobbyists. The pros are too busy producing…

    A lot of people say those things, it's such a strange theory to me.

    The idea that pros think products are always perfect and don't hang out in forums because they are always busy making music is insane to me since most of them spend a ton of hours on Instagram, messaging apps, trading memes, and living life like everyone else. I am speaking from experience since I am a pro and touring I meet many, many other pros... If they are technically advanced pros they complain about the same things, they just don't hang out in forums... Neither to be critical nor to praise anything.

    Sorry for quoting so much and note I am not arguing, it's just a friendly conversation with different points of view.

  • ozon
    ozon Member Posts: 1,301 Expert

    @D-One wrote:


    I am speaking from experience since I am a pro and touring I meet many, many other pros...

    Proves my point: You’re not complaining. You either find a creative workaround or move on.

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