I think I've tried just about every setting in Insight2, but the numbers consistently don't match (integrated LUFS) with MTM's expose2 or Levels or Youlean (Youlean and MTM match). Anybody seen this and have advice?
What exactly is wrong? Every tool out there is just a tool - they all work slightly differently.
Is it out by 15 LUFS or by 1 LUFS?
VP
There are several concepts at play here.
Loudness Standards
These are established by a standards body, and/or distribution/streaming service. Each standard will specify the acceptable ranges and/or ceilings with which content delivered to or distributed by that service must comply.
There are so, so many different standards, including;
Those are just some of the standards from various international bodies. Standards like EBU contain many more regional variations not listed.
Many audiobook distributors also have their own distinct standards, as do most major audio or video streaming services.
Standards may draw from some or all of a variety of different ways to measure Loudness, including;
So, let's talk about Loudness Measurements.
All measurements have highly specified, non-negotiable and consistent methods by which to calculate their reading.
Sometimes, a measurement most people think of as consistent may actually have multiple methods by which to calculate a reading, which will then be separately specified. True vs Sample Peak and RMS vs RMS AES17 are examples of this.
Other times, the reading of a measurement (e.g. Integrated) may vary depending on whether other measurements are enabled or disabled (e.g. Gating).
Integrated with or without Gating is a great example of an inextricable relationship here. Some standards will specify that Gating is enabled, others disabled. As you might imagine, should you be gating OUT (or not) all audio below a certain threshold, then this would prompt an aggregated measurement like Integrated to read differently.
My point is this:
One cannot simply say "I am measuring Integrated in several different products and getting different results, therefore is one right and is one wrong?".
Instead, one needs to ensure that you're measuring the exact same thing in the exact same way. Which standard have you selected? Which selection of measurements is it calling for? Are some of those (e.g. Gating) enabled or disabled as part of that loudness standard, such that you'd see a difference if it was set inconsistently across products?
I'm not super familiar with MTM Expose 2 or Youlean but I would recommend first ensuring you're doing an accurate comparison, with the exact same standards and measurements enabled across the board.
Of course, it could still be possible that something in one or more products is calculating incorrectly, so I remain open to this possibility. But given Insight is broadcast compliant, and in use in the audio post production industry, I'd imagine any inaccuracy would have been found long ago, as the very first time an engineer went to submit content, it would have been rejected by automated compliance systems.
FWIW - I have used Insight for years and have been submitting work to all sorts of industry partners where broadcast levels matter - not once have I been told my work is not compliant.
Tolerance is another example of a setting that may cause a different Integrated reading. I'm not even sure if MTM2 and Youlean allow a user to set Tolerance.
True. Also - have never heard of these two metering apps - so not sure of their stature in the overall industry as well.
Just because you have a plugin that does LUFS etc - does not necessarily mean it's accurate, reliable or well regarded in the circles where this kind of stuff matters.
I do know that Insight is tried and true for sure. The only other toolkit I use for metering is by Nugen Audio - their stuff is next level as well.
Yeah, so that's what I was hoping you all might know…what standard is MTM and/or Youlean using so I could figure out what is what (I have tried a number of the Insight 2 measurements and not found one that matches on the exact same track (they are always different by about 2 db which is huge in my world). I'm going to ask Tom at Mastering the Mix (CEO) and see what he says, and I'll revert back to the thread.
Took another look at these two.
Firstly - with Expose 2 - I cannot determine what standard this thing uses (or see a way to load a standard) - so that would instantly disqualify it for me. If you cannot set a specific standard before doing anything against Insight - the comparison is pointless.
YouLean is a tad better in that you do get a listing of standards to load up - but a "free" plugin vs Insight (not to mention iZotopes decades of experience in this area) makes this compare a bit iffy for me as well.
If it were me - I would square all of them to
And see where the chips fall. This is the worldwide standard baseline for me
FWIW - Expose 2 would be out immediately if this cannot be set. The more I see in the examples - the farther this thing gets from being a quality metering app and more over to a "correction" tool that tries too hard to tell you what it thinks is wrong. But nowhere does it state what it is making it's suggestions against or how it arrives at it's conclusions.
This is all quite interesting. I did not get Insight because I wasn't sure I needed it and I have so many plugins, so I remained undecided until time decided for me. But I have ADPTR MetricAB, which functions as a meter. The manual says it allows setting to EBU R128, though the actual selection list doesn't have exactly that, but instead has "Broadcast EU" (which I expect is EBU R128), "Broadcast Japan", and "Broadcast USA", as well as various streaming services and some which set non-standard target levels. I can't find anything to indicate whether this is only setting the desired target to aim for vs. the measurement algorithm. The fact that changing the LUFS target directly changes the selection (custom when not matching an existing preset) makes me wonder. If not, well, it's more for information than an absolute target. Maybe one day I'll get Insight and compare.
YouLean is actually quite popular, from what I know. I've downloaded the demo once (so called free version) - didn't like the GUI much, so it went to the bin.
I have my hardware meter (RTW TM3-Primus) set to EBU R128 and its readouts (Short term and Integrated loudness in LUFS and True Peak Max in dBTP) match the relevant meters in Logic Pro perfectly.
I agree that it is probably a matter of different measuring standards in different meter plugins.
Tom (the CEO from Mastering the Mix, Tom Frampton) told me they use EBU-128. When I set Insight2 to that, Insight2, MTM LEVELS, and Youlean now match. Problem solved. (I must have missed trying that one from Insight2 when I was trying to figure this out)…. Live screenshot during track playback below (and it is consistent everywhere in the track now). Thanks for all the thoughts and help!!
That's the best possible outcome, in that it confirms all three products are working correctly.
However, I would make sure you're using the loudness standard that makes sense for your situation.
As I said, they're all different, and exist for different technical or even geopolitical reasons.
For example: don't use EBU-128 just because it's what makes your meters match. Use it because you're delivering content to be broadcast in the European Union.
Yes, you're absolutely right, Matthew. Specifically, I'm targeting Spotify and YouTube.
Both (according to Perplexity) use the EBU R128 compliant implementation of ITU-R BS.1770-4
All my targeting is now at -14 LUFS with this standard (and -1 dBTP), now that I've learned so much about this in this little adventure :)
